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[hemmingjay]

Hemmingjay, any word on any kind of release? I'm really starting to worry that the constant feature creep will ruin this game

you call it "feature creep" i call it "adding a ton of content"... its the same anyways, just with a different thought behind it.
looks like you just want to play the game... NOW!!!!!1111   and call it feature creep because they do daily updates (that is pretty awesome that they do this for us. they could just do 1 update per month instead like... "we worked on more items for each type of ore, sleeping, our new AI guy is working on the awesome fish swimming ai, lava creates light now, working on intros... here have a screenshot... see you next month.)

maybe try to find a different game that keeps you busy for at least..... a month? so your not constantly looking at their website each day and "get disappointed by CONTENT err.. feature creep"

pretty sure that once they get a playable version out for the public you get a email about it (if you preordered?)... and it gets spammed in this topic too.

everyone know how it feels if you look forward to a game and want to play it already a week ago... (hello X³).
for me it kind of works to get busy with a different game instead (hello vindictus, world of tanks, twitch streams, any i might add age of wulin CB to the list soon)... but its probably hard to find something that you like that much to actually keep you busy for a while...
and then one day you get a email "starbound is released!!!" and you instantly throw away everything else you you were totally into for weeks and start exploring all the "feature creep" err... CONTENT that is in the game.
 

I appreciate the thought, but it is not the case. I simply don't have the time to play the games I have now, let alone this time sucker. The fact is that they are getting deep into scope creep/feature creep territory while they wait on another team member to hammer out AI issues. The problem is they have dramatically expanded their design document while deep into production, which is almost always a no-no. While it sounds great to add tons of content, it creates further complications and potential incompatibilities with the originally planned feature set. It also can cause a loss of focus as the new exciting ideas tend to garner more attention from the programmer than the item that has been staring them in the face on the schedule for months. If you have been following along you would see that the game has expanded in it's scope tremendously several times. In addition to causing logistic problems, this type of scope creep can also cause a lack of focus/clear identity in the project. I hate to even mention these bombs in relation but they are famous examples........Spore and Fable 3. Both were games by well known idea guy/super creatives. Both teams reported that during production the lead kept adding new ideas and as these new ideas got added other planned features were dropped or simplified. Additionally, what we were left with was a somewhat incoherent game that felt like 2 or 3 games hastily thrown together.

I think Starbound will be great, but I worry that we are at a point of concern. Nothing overly dramatic, just someone who has observed this pattern before and doesn't want it to be repeated. 


As an example, here is their update from yesterday:
Today we set about revamping the examination system. Where examining an object used to bring up a tool tip with a description of the object in it (still accessible when the object is obtained). Your character will now comment on the object directly. Not only that but each race will comment on objects differently. This leads to some vary interesting scenarios where, for example,  you might ask your friend playing as an avian to examine an object you found in an Avian tomb because their knowledge might be greater than your own.

Of course this means I need to write 6 descriptions for everything you can investigate. Which is well over 6000+ descriptions.  So you can guess what I spent the day doing.

I managed to complete over 800 so far. Quite a way to go on that then!

[Lightning4]

I hate to even mention these bombs in relation but they are famous examples........Spore and Fable 3.

I thought at least part of Spore's problem was also Executive Meddling? I could be wrong about that, though.

[hemmingjay]

Yes, supposedly eventually pressure forced them to release Spore because costs were spiraling, due to the longer than expected development cycle which could rationally be attributed to the aforementioned reported scope creep. Every feature you add outside of the original design document has the potential to increase design time, dev time, testing time and each one of these items adds costs. Further, each one is a potential source of complication in coding which usually becomes buggy gameplay or disjointed feel.

Obviously, none of this is set in stone. It's simply a matter of applying case studies and principles of product development. My own experience in this is primarily from the Biz Dev side and the exponential cost and scheduling rise.

[umiman]

A very common source of failure for entrepreneurs is the attempting-to-do-everything syndrome.

[Nelia Hawk]

what i would have posted:
(just ignore this spoiler)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lots of features is great. Feature creep, however, is generally not.

yeah... and i dont see where they are feature creeping right now.

Hemmingjay, any word on any kind of release? I'm really starting to worry that the constant feature creep will ruin this game

he said "constant" that would mean that pretty much everything they do right now is just feature creeping stuff into the game that...

Extra features go beyond the basic function of the product and so can result in over-complication rather than simple design. Viewed over a longer time period, extra or unnecessary features seem to creep into the system, beyond the initial goals.

... are overcomplicating the game/are just extra and unnecessary/not planed to be included in the initial game/ruining the game.

and i dont see that they do that.

the only thing i would lightly would call "feature creep" is their "work on whatever project you want on sundays". but that is just one day... not "constant". and with that who knows if they get a great idea/feature that would be a good addition to the game. and it seems they know what they are doing and probably a lot ideas they work on sundays will not make it into the game.


if i go by the wiki again:

Occasionally, uncontrolled feature creep can lead to products far beyond the scope of what was originally intended. For example, the video game The Elder Scrolls: Arena was originally intended to be a "medieval style gladiator game", however due to feature creep the game quickly expanded into a large open role-playing game, spawning several sequels.

if the starbound people would work on a "feature" that would pretty much be "civilisation" were you build a town and recruit troops and civilize/conquer planets... and then a "combat feature" like total war where you command armies around on a battle map... and a space "feature" where you build spaceships and fight in space like in space 4x games...
just the civilisation "feature" could be a whole "game inside the game", where you just play the civilisation game and dont worry about the space planet exploration anymore.

that i would call feature creep, that was not intended in the original plan of the game. (a sandboxy space exploring game.)


i am still going with "they are adding content" and not "they are adding feature creep, release the game already."


also dwarf fortress would be "feature creep, THE GAME !!!".
(and here i do like that dwarf fortress gets updated like it does.
overall i like games that are in constant development... that change and get new features... probably a reason too why i like alpha/beta versions, suggesting ideas, finding bugs)

starbounds estimated release by their road map is 2013... so if they just start to work on a "planet civ 5 feature" by Dec-2013... THEN i would be worried about feature creep.
and from what it looks like i think the starbound devs will not fall into feature creep traps like that.
the daily updates actually help seeing if they feature creep or not... i.e. if they would do monthly updates and randomly announce they have a "total war like army battles"... then you would be "the hell? why did they add that? concentrate on teh actual real game, dont add random ideas to it" or so...

and no i am not going through their last 7 update days and compare it to their roadmap. if stuff is "planed in the road map and they are working on it" blah...

currently i am not worried about starbound... the devs are doing an amazing job with it.


oh well...

the question is:
what of the projects they have written about in their daily news would you consider feature creep?

Hemmingjay, any word on any kind of release? I'm really starting to worry that the constant feature creep will ruin this game

and why do you think they are "CONSTANT feature creeping" ?
what of their updates do you consider feature creep?
are overcomplicating the game?
are just extra and unnecessary?
not planed to be included in the initial game?
ruining the game?

instead of trying to explain why i think they are adding "features/content" and not think they are "feature creeping".
i will just ask the rest who think this is a topic to talk about (i am more like "why do you even think hey are feature creeping?, you just want to play the game NOW and are impatient or overhyped or something") where you guys think they are feature creeping and why etc...


i just dont see where chattox sees they are constant feature creeping... thats all... why do i even get worked up about this lol.

also this post is exactly why i HATE arguing over the internet about stuff. grmbl so i probably will just drop this "feature creep" topic...

what i post instead:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ahhh, thanks hemmingjay.
that is what i needed... an example why people think they are feature creeping.


with feature creep in mind i see where adding such development details (1000 lines of description text for each race. instead of 1000 generic description lines shared with all races) adds up "unplaned/unneeded" development time over and over for each detail and feature and then it ends up that they release the game 2 years later than "planed".

what if they instead just add 1000 generic lines and bring out a "racial description text DLC"..... or add it in content patches after release?
i guess than we would be angry about "a billion dlc packages" or "unfinished game got released" arguments...
game development is quite tricky to balance all that... not falling into feature creep, but still adding enough or so...

but on the other hand with the description example i would probably say, that that is a "planed feature"... all over the place they already added features that make each race unique... that is basically one of the main features the game has... realy unique races and not just added cat-ears to humans that change the default character a bit.
i.e. their own intros instead of just 1 generic intro that fits for all races...
each race has their own weapon/armor/furniture/tomb styles... (in addition to generic ore based items for all races)
is that all feature creep too? should they just went "1 generic thing for everything"? because making each race feel different is "unnecessary waste of time" ?
if you start to get that nitpicky (?) you probably start to call everything a feature creep.... (maybe that is why the other guy wrote "CONSTANT feature creep" ?)

i would say here too that the 6000 description lines are CONTENT and not feature creep. (unique races are part of their plan, not a half-developed extra feature...)




looking at their roadmap a lot of stuff is at 70/80/90%... so i am not too worried that the game will not come out 2013 because they feature creep it into oblivion.
i.e "investigation" is at 100%  and "tool tips" is at 90% now (no idea if before or after the 6000 lines of text).
(and yeah not taking the roadmap as "this is 100% in exact" and is more a general overall idea how far the game is developed)

i would still say the devs "know what they are doing", but yeah i see too why people are worried.



also as i said in that spoiler rambling at the top... sundays seem to be their "feature creep" days where they work on ideas and features that are not planed to be in the game by default... i think space stations are one of their ideas.

or:
if the starbound people would work on a "feature" that would pretty much be "civilization" were you build a town and recruit troops and civilize/conquer planets... and then a "combat feature" like total war where you command armies around on a battle map... and a space "feature" where you build spaceships and fight in space like in space 4x games...
just the civilization "feature" could be a whole "game inside the game" (thinking about you spore with your 4 games in one game...), where you just play the civilization game and dont worry about the space planet exploration anymore.

that i would call feature creep, that was not intended in the original plan of the game. (a sandbox-y space exploring game.)

but the i.e. space stations might be "feature creep" if they go in now by release... but it might also turns out to be "content" if that gets added in a future expansion.
for that are the sundays after all... to see if ideas turn out good or would eat up 2 months of time to get compatible with the main game and to fix all the new bugs that are caused with the stations... etcetc.

but who knows... maybe i am just too optimistic in this case? and dont "get" where it goes wrong... *shrugs*


personally i am more worried that there wont be enough "content" to keep me interested or that it will be pretty quick to achive the "i have seen everything/most stuff now" state. or that there wont be much replayability.
(i.e. FTL was realy good in terms of replayability as each playthrough was "unique". well sure at some point you have "seen" all possible encounters, but it is still fun to go through again without geting boring. similar case with a lot roguelike games that pretty much build on the thought that you start teh game over and over.
i.e. terraria was not good in terms of replayability, as its always the same progression, but was fun to "explore the first time". think i just played through 3 worlds, once before hardmode, once multiplayer with a friend, and i got bored going through the 3rd time alone to get to hard mode that i never even fought the wall of flesh.).
i guess it will be more like terraria... where going the first time into the game not knowing about anything and exploring the game is the best experience and not playing the game again and again and again like i.e. roguelikes. but that is just me.

oh well... didnt want to escalate this feature creep discussion... (writing way too much about this anyways already.) so i skip out of it...

i just stay optimistic that the devs have things under control and that the game will be fun to play once it is out.
or maybe i will facepalm hard because i was wrong and i hear in 3 months that they work on "total war size army battles and civilization empire/town control with spaceship battle and..."... FEATURES...   /creepfacepalm


and i guess dwarf fortress is "feature creep, THE GAME !!!".

[Slayerhero90]

Those intros are impressive.

[Flying Dice]

Not really. As I understand it, Toady has had a coherent idea of what he wanted to do with it for a long time, it's just that the development process is, to say the least, lengthy.

[Kaje]

Just to get back to the features, am I right in thinking we can build space ships and travel to other worlds? Essentially having bases on as many as we can bother to travel to? And the space stations - will those be available/buildable in single player?

[hemmingjay]

Nelia Hawk, I can't disagree with your opinion. It's as valid as anyone else's. I stated why I think it's scope creep(expanding a great deal beyond the original design many times now) but I can also see why you just see it as extra content. I don't care when the game comes out, as long as it's coherent and has a reasonable amount of bugs. I don't doubt the team or the game at this point. I merely voiced concern over this recent(2 month) trend now. I think DF is a game that will never release a final version, by design. Whereas Starbound has an intended release date and support schedule, implying development lifecycle. In that scenario, you must release a mostly complete game that can be patched and updated. The two are totally different concepts. Additionally, Toady has the benefit of a very long and old design document with more branches than I think he can expect to complete in his lifetime. One is a commercial game and the other is a life's work project.

Kaje, Yes you can upgrade/decorate your ship and explore planets building outposts on them. Also, they are working on a feature for MP where your guild/corporation/empire can build a shared space station but it's not definite for the finished game.

[Kaje]

Thanks hemmingjay - I pre-ordered a long time ago, but always amazed at the scope this has.

[Chattox]

I'd just like to clarify, I'm not one of those "OMG I WANTS TEH GAEM NAOW!!!1!!!!1ELEVEN" people, even though I admit my post came across as such. What I'm more worried about is that, the longer the development time is and the more they talk about the stuff they're adding, the more hype will build and the higher expectations will be for once it finally does release. And we all saw how that panned out with Fable.

I can wait as long as it takes to get the game into my hands, time really isn't an issue to me. What I am worried about is the game being received by players as a disappointment because of how much people overhyped themselves about it. You know what the internet is like when people think they've been wronged; it would stunt any further growth and expansion of the game for sure, and that's what worries me.

[Maldevious]

I think (hope) this game will be fantastic, but at this point it seems like it will be incredibly difficult not to disappoint some of the fan base, given the rabid nature of the fandom and the expansive features under consideration.

[Darkmere]

Internet backlash will happen for everything (and has happened with this game already) regardless.

I'm absolutely certain the game will be fun and I'll sink a ton of time into it regardless, but two things worry me about it right now.

1) Some time ago, Tiy said the plan was to develop weekly free content updates to the game post-release, with a separate team working on larger content patches at longer intervals. That needs to be balanced out with bug fixes, and they only have a handful (2? 3?) of coders that will be split between bugfixing and implementation of new features. They have several people doing graphics and data entry... that could lead to bottlenecks and schedule slip for either project team.

2) Everything they add now adds more complexity and potential pitfalls to a game that isn't officially codified yet. Post-release, there's always an established "baseline" for content, so if something needs to be integrated, you just look at what the game already is and make the new stuff fit. Now, if someone has a great idea, there's no pressure to conform with a baseline, since you can just re-write or add parts to the core game. They have several cooks making the soup, and the recipe is still being written, to metaphorize it.

In short, CONTENT can (and was promised to be) constantly added post-release anyway, so we're not inherently missing out on it if it's not done right now.

[hemmingjay]

Some good news coming tomorrow. No, not THAT good, but good nevertheless.

[Flying Dice]

Some good news coming tomorrow. No, not THAT good, but good nevertheless.

Good to hear, still.