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[Neonivek]

I dont know if its intentional or not, but you appear to be asserting alot of what you are saying as if its absolute truth

It is intentional this time. I played a lot of Terraria and become rather frustrated with certain mechanics which when I brought to the general community tend to not be rejected because "You are wrong" but because "I just ignore it". Which basically stems from the fact that I play Terraria for other reasons then the fans who still talk about it today do as well.

So my assertions come from the fact that they tend not to be contradicted. As well a lot of what I say are on basic design philosophy.

many people disagree and had fun regardless or even because of x

Yeah but you have to listen to what they are saying as opposed to the basic jist. For example one outright said that Terraria would be better without bosses and said that combat was fun. Which you could take at face value but you also have to remember their mindset and their commentary and apply it to what they want out of Terraria. It wasn't the combat they were getting out of Terraria.

It is only important so much that Terraria is the template on how these games are to be done. As well as getting out of the way what the Starbound fan base is like, which is so far the same people who liked Terraria.

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If the ordinary enemies aren't meant to be very stimulating, as some games have it, then what these enemies build up to (The bosses) need to be stimulating for there to be a pay off for your hard work. Otherwise there really is no point to there even being combat except to stretch out the sandbox or to add more grinding to a game that has no reason for grinding (When there is nothing to really kill).

If the controls aren't solid then that means that the gameplay is about your equipment and less about how you use your equipment. If the controls are solid it leaves it open to more of a skill factor. Yet at the same time with an equipment aspect it means that skill cannot be the prime motivator of the game because skill shines unless bosses have cheap shots to kill off the unequipped (something I am against, but whatever...).

The other aspect is that the general level designs, especially of the indoor areas, suggest a more third person shooter aspect to them. I suspect Halloween Harry type gameplay. Though given free range of weaponry I don't quite know what else to compare it to.

[alexwazer]

At this point, I've got to ask what you base yourself on to compare Terraria combat and bosses. Because, as far as platformers go, while it wasn't anything special, it wasn't worse than most either.

Also, you seem to not take into consideration the main aspect that affected combat in Terraria: the possibility to alter the terrain however you want. The ability to create your own arena to fight the bosses is what really made them a non issue. Ever tried to fight EoC inside your house or a cave? The EoW while staying into the corruption's tunnels? The WoF without building a hell bridge? Any of the hardmode bosses without some prepared area? Any of those fight would be completely different based on where you decide to fight and how you prepare the area. This is Terraria in a nutshell. Terraria was never a huge challenge when it comes to combat if you could prepare the area. I've died more often from drowning because I ended up in underground water without light or from being know down into lava by a bat than I did from any boss. That's why I enjoyed Terraria.

I'm hoping Starbound will be similar, with relatively simple combat mechanics. A bit more diversity in movement and attack pattern would be nice, but personally I prefer simple combat over anything complex... suck at platformers and I do not especially enjoy losing over and over. If I was looking for complex combat, platformers would not the kind of game I'd look for.

[Neonivek]

I've got to ask what you base yourself on to compare Terraria combat and bosses. Because, as far as platformers go, while it wasn't anything special, it wasn't worse than most either

Terraria done a lot of things right, it always was one rung below being anything but mediocre in anything it did, it was always an almost great game that got an 8 when it deserved a 7. If the genre was exploited I think Terraria would be seen more as a average game.

Terrible games tend to make me lose interest really fast, but Terraria has the privilege of being one of the few like/hate games I own in that it is good enough that it is very fun and enjoyable, but with so much to make me hate it at the very same time, with gameplay that always just hovers below good or ok with "great" being somewhere else.

The one thing I absolutely do not want people to do with Terraria is settle and make it the staple. It will always be, to me, below the standard that has yet to exist.

Also, you seem to not take into consideration the main aspect that affected combat in Terraria: the possibility to alter the terrain however you want.

That kind of opens up the games more gaping flaws which can just be summed up as "movement".

I've died more often from drowning because I ended up in underground water without light or from being know down into lava by a bat than I did from any boss. That's why I enjoyed Terraria

I am not really seeking bosses that are tough. I am not asking for difficult edge of your seat bosses.

I am more or less asking for bosses that shown a bit more complexity in their strategies and attacks, where the controls of the game aided in defeating them. For example Skeletors Head roll was barely jumpable and his pattern was more or less to bump into you.

I'm hoping Starbound will be similar, with relatively simple combat mechanics. A bit more diversity in movement and attack pattern would be nice, but personally I prefer simple combat over anything complex... suck at platformers and I do not especially enjoy losing over and over. If I was looking for complex combat, platformers would not the kind of game I'd look for.

And this is pretty much where our gaming philosophies start to differ. I actually grow really weary of games where enemies are basically "Run into opponent" over and over again. I love games where the skills you learn as you play are genuine and you improve and learn as you go.

I loathe games where you can jump into a fight with the very last dungeon/boss and take him down (unless you are just great with the genre).

Which is fine, we both want something different from this game.

If I were to bet money as to who is going to get the game they want? It is you. You are more representative of the current majority of people who play videogames.

[alexwazer]

It will always be, to me, below the standard that has yet to exist.

This is all I really needed to understand. And you know what? I actually agree 100%

Even for Starbound, our philosophies don't differ that much. If Starbound adds enough diversity and just enough complexity, we could both get our cake. Better combat isn't something I wish to avoid, I just don't want the complexity to overshadow the other aspects or make it impossible to play if you aren't skilled in platformers. Starbound having different planets with different difficulty, that wouldn't be so hard to do. I honestly don't mind if I can't survive 10 seconds on planet of difficulty 80+ (out of 100) because of how bad I am if I can enjoy the stuff on the planets -80... or whatever the numbers and distribution. I can enjoy a game even if I can't reach the end game. In fact, I never reached end game in the vast majority of the games I've played.

[Neonivek]

Admittingly I think Starbound will be great in not punishing people who don't want to do combat as well as no punishing people who don't want to do the heavy exploration.

If it does have that separation where people can chose how to play the game without being punished while still giving a reward, then yeah it does hit both our needs. Mind you I am not looking for high complexity or difficulty but more or less for solid controls and gameplay gear towards them.

[Darkmere]

It will always be, to me, below the standard that has yet to exist.

I usually make a point not to get involved, but I *have* to comment on this.

Everything will always fail if you compare it to the imaginary Platonic Ideal. Further, you did blatantly ignore Frumple talking about things that contradicted your factual opinions. Terraria bosses were not entirely based on collision damage... the hard mode bosses all had projectile weapon patterns to dodge in addition to collision damage. So, what, in detail, is your ideal boss encounter in a... whatever you want to call this genre? How does the perfect boss encounter work, when you have variable equipment setups and can alter the terrain to your advantage? What, exactly, constitutes the perfect balance of player skill and interesting design mechanics that would satisfy you?

[Neonivek]

Well let me see... Hard mode Eater of Worlds is pretty close, give him a few tweeks, fix up the controls, remove the damage shield, exploits, make him more conducive to single player... and boom!

The hard mode bosses were a step in the right direction but they had large problems.

" What, exactly, constitutes the perfect balance of player skill and interesting design mechanics that would satisfy you?"

Well you have a character and he can jump, the jump is designed so it allows you to hop on the ledges in the game with little difficult and on the run.

The boss attacks and for the attacks you need to jump over, your jump clears it. He chases you, and your ability to move compliments the layout.

When the boss attacks you, he does an animation indicating an attack. Heck maybe he doesn't have a damage field.

[Darkmere]

That's ridiculously vague... specifics? What about it did you like? What about the controls needed to be improved? What tweaks would you make?

(I'm genuinely curious, anyone else is free to chime in as well)

[Neonivek]

That's ridiculously vague... specifics? What about it did you like? What about the controls needed to be improved? What tweaks would you make?

(I'm genuinely curious, anyone else is free to chime in as well)

What did I like about Terraria or the boss? What controls in Terraria need to be improved?

[Darkmere]

I asked what you would like in an ideal encounter. You said EoW was close, now I'm asking what specifically needs to be changed on that encounter (via anything, I guess) to make it your ideal according to the criteria you mentioned.

[Neonivek]

Well in Hard mode EoW he digs through the ground and pops up, usually in predictable ways, and you attack his sides. Where he also shoots lasers at you which you can dodge.

What I like about him is that he has more then one way of attacking (and his attacks are attacks and not bumping into you), his lasers can be dodged easily with the control mechanics given to you, and the way you damage him compliments the weaponry you would have at that point (multi hits).

The tweeks I'd give him is that
1) I'd fix up the controls and the lasers so that dodging them becomes much more possible and predictable. That way the boss is more of a marathon boss and less of one you try to damage extremely quickly.
2) I'd remove his damage shield: Walking into his sides should do little-no damage, this major forms of attack are his head charge, lasers, and drones. Heck it would be interesting if you could fight him while jumping on his body.
3) More single player Viable: When in single player, lower defense, lower health, lower damage. Terraria in general was bad for this (Skeletron was the worst! but they fixed him later)
4) Exploits be gone!: Remove the exploits that lets you kill him in a few seconds (As we all know, someone beat all the hard mode bosses in less then a minute)

With better controls it means he is more about dodging his attacks while still aiming your own. With him being more consistent it means that he has less cheap shots. Removing his damage shield stops some of the situations where he chain hits you. Then once you hit that point he hit "perfection in design" as in there is nothing to take away, you can do whatever you want with him then.

A perfect boss depends on the game as always.

[Darkmere]

Those all sound reasonable, though I admit I always preferred ranged weapons in Terraria (and probably will in starbound, as well), so touching the bosses was something I usually avoided. Oddly enough, I didn't have much issue with skeletron (either form) other than running out of ammo. I'm also not familiar with the exploits, other than (I guess?) using the holy symbol for more invincibility frames and using the flamethrower For Massive Damage.

I admit, I did want to ask that question (what specifically do you want) and get something other than "I don't know, the developers' job is to please me by providing some vacuous better thing than what I got." You brought up something else, though, that I think Starbound will do better. The idea of having something in each hand is better than Terraria, because it adds more complexity to combat besides pick weapon and attack. I'm hoping the different weapon types will add more to combat, like rocket launchers doing AoE damage and destroying terrain, or timing your attacks with a one-handed gun while also blocking with a shield.

I haven't followed Starbound closely in a while, though. Recent streams could have shed light on those topics.

[Sirus]

I'm really hoping they add commissar caps, even if it's just cosmetic. I want a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other, dammit.

[Max White]

Well if you have $500, and they release another round of platinum tier, and you get in fast, and Commissar caps happen to still be your preferred head gear, it is a certainty!

I personally adore the tricorne, so I'm happy.

[Neonivek]

Early on the problem with Skeletron on Solo was that it was impossible to kill him with the gear that was available because you couldn't damage him enough with the weapons available. Meaning that you had to skip the Dungeon Tier to fight him and often go straight to Hell Tier items.

This was fixed later on.