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[Darkmere]

So... on the actual topic of Starbound... I finally got around to pre-ordering. You guys were right, it was worth the cash up front just for the soundtrack. I think I'm going to put Desert Battle 2 on repeat for a few days.

[Neonivek]

So... on the actual topic of Starbound... I finally got around to pre-ordering. You guys were right, it was worth the cash up front just for the soundtrack. I think I'm going to put Desert Battle 2 on repeat for a few days.

Preordering is done through Paypal right?

[Darkmere]

Preordering is done through Paypal right?

Paypal, amazon, or google, I believe.

[alexwazer]

Spoiler: TL:DR : You're wrong! Internet is wrong! Please ignore (click to show/hide)

I would have enjoyed the game just as much without the bosses, even more actually since a few stages are grindy because of the need to defeat bosses to get utility gear

And now my statement is SUPPORTED by you. Are you sure you are trying to argue against me?

The Bosses were important they were just done so terribly that even you ignored them.

Well you certainly gave me your opinion, I appreciate it but next time you shouldn't just repeat what I say in different words

I think we just don't give the same meaning to the word "important" in the current context. I mean it in a strictly positive manner, or as a synonym of "essential", as something that's required. You seem to give it a slightly different meaning, similar to "central", as something that plays a major role. So, for you bosses are important because they play a central role in Terraria's progression, while I don't consider them important because they are not, to me, essential to enjoy a game like Terraria. If I considered bosses essentials, I would not have enjoyed Terraria as much as I did, because they are honestly terrible once you've figured them out (which isn't hard to do either). Better bosses would not have made the game any better for me.

I do somewhat agree that they play a major role in Terraria, although not quite as much as you seem to do; mostly because their removal wouldn't remove the need to grind. Plus, once you know how to handle them, you don't need all that much more grinding for the bosses than you would without them. Finally, it is possible to ignore completely many of them without missing out much.

You might consider them essentials, which would explain why you tend to be so critical with Terraria, but that is really a matter of opinions, which brings back the first reply: "That's an opinion, thanks for sharing it." You might want to learn how to type "in my opinion" or "I think"... just some random advice.

I still haven't listened to the full soundtrack. I dumped all of them in a playlist and always stop listening after a while... I'm going to hate battle on tentacle planets. Lots of good ones however. I probably should clean up the playlist to remove the ones I can't stand. I've been listening the 2 lava exploration tracks a lot, trying to get used to them as much as possible.

[Neonivek]

You might consider them essentials

The game thinks it is essential. It isn't a hard concept to understand, games build upon certain aspects while downplaying others. Games build towards certain moments or give players the ability to shy away from them.

In a game about building bigger and better weapons the important part is what you are going to use them on.

mostly because their removal wouldn't remove the need to grind

That isn't what I mean, what I mean is that Terraria builds up to these Boss battles and thus they needed to be good. They aren't unimportant they are vital to how Terraria functions. The fact that they aren't very good is one of the reasons why even people who love terraria generally speaking ignore the combat aspect of the gameplay or find that it doesn't factor into their enjoyment of the game at all.

 

which brings back the first reply: "That's an opinion, thanks for sharing it."

Which is why I basically outright say. It isn't an opinion it is fact that I support as true especially in light that my statement hasn't been contradicted or challenged. Which is why I responded the way I did, it isn't an opinion. I am asserting.

Which brings us back to Starbound.

If Starbound has weak bosses it can still get away with it if the general combat was better.

Terraria had lousy general combat and needed stronger bosses which it didn't have.

It is why I watch Starbound like a hawk because it can just as easily have the same issues towards combat that Terraria has, afterall "Who cares about combat in a sandbox? The Sandbox MORE then makes up for it" mentality is quite strong.

I am more or less worried that the nonserious nature of the game and the relaxing and slow paced nature of the Sandbox, may mean that the combat must also be "Slow, relaxing, and unserious".

[Frumple]

Just... kinda' throwing it out there, but I was pretty happy with Terraria's combat. Found the boss fights to be fun (with maybe an exception for the big worm whatsits... those were pretty alright for the first go, usually, but a bit too easy to just hang from the wall and spew at after a bit), especially before defense gets too crazy. About as good or better than most of the actual Castlevania games I've played (which is most of them, at this point, if not to completion), imo, and when it matches up well with a dedicated platformer of great repute... I'm kinda' down with that, yeah. That's definitely past my point of sufficiency.

Boss fights were cheeseable after a point (invincibility frame abuse, potion chugging, etc.), but if I threw out the combat of every platformer that had cheeseable elements in it, I'd kinda' be out of platformers altogether, mostly. S'not to say T couldn't have been improved in that area, but it's definitely not what I'd call bad or terrible. Rewarded movement and made it pretty satisfactory (to me, at least), gave enemies alright pattern variance (especially compared to older games, natch), had pretty decent weapon variation (especially compared to a lot of combat-centric platformers, period). Being able to craft your own battlefield is fairly unique and can be interesting. T'me, terraria's battle system was pretty darn decent.

Regarding Starbound, I'm still in wait-and-see mode, insofar as anticipation and the combat system goes. We've seen what we've seen, and what we've seen isn't terribly much, yet (unless the absolute latest videos -- something about a PvP vid? -- has been a bit more revealing). Some shooting, some enemies, a little bit of (looking much like Terraria) melee, but not much of how it all comes together and what it's intended to look or feel like come release (or some point after). Looking forward to when the speculation can end, ha

[Neonivek]

imo, and when it matches up well with a dedicated platformer of great repute... I'm kinda' down with that, yeah. That's definitely past my point of sufficiency.

I feel a wave of sadness if this is true, in fact now I have to find out what Castlevanias you are referring to.

Though I tend to compare Terraria to the Mario games where the solid controls are supported by the boss and stage designs or Ghost and Goblins where the controls were wonky but because of how the game functioned they worked... or Mickey's mystic quest where the same can be said. Though all of these games have a major difference between the Castlevania's I bet you are referring to, they are games that aren't based upon stats and equipment stats. So where those games have very little margin of error the Castlevania RPGs had to hack away from your HP and as such they have different design philosophies and given that quite a few of those bosses can be toughed out (Ignore them and just hit them until they die) I can see the connection to Terraria.

Which is really the easiest way to tell the quality of Starbound, the movement alone without seeing an inch of combat will give me all the information I need. Solid movement and controls means that the skill factor can be enforced, wonky movement means that the skill factor is diminished.

[alexwazer]

If Starbound has weak bosses it can still get away with it if the general combat was better.

Terraria had lousy general combat and needed stronger bosses which it didn't have.

See, this is exactly what I meant. "I think" or "In my opinion" would have completely changed the meaning of those sentences. So basically, we agree that the importance of bosses is relative for Starbound, because we don't how combat will be yet, but you can't accept that it is the same for Terraria, because you found combat unsatisfactory. What you consider good combat isn't the same as other people. I enjoyed combat, amongst other things, in Terraria even if it was simple... no, because it was simple. I suck at platformers. So, as far as I am concerned, Terraria did get away with it and could have done so even without any bosses at all. You might not agree, the game might not have been designed with that in mind, but all this is completely irrelevant when it come to whether I enjoyed it or not.

Even strictly considering the game design, bosses weren't that important, except the WoF which was intentional since not everyone wanted to turn their world into hardmode. EoC and EoW could be skipped completely, it was possible to avoid the dungeon and skeletron until much later or forever, hardmode bosses were only useful for a handful of items. There were tons of gear available without having to fight a single boss. Except the WoF, but going hardmode was hardly necessary to enjoy the game, so if anything, it just proves that "building bigger and better weapons" wasn't necessarily the most important aspect of the game.

I enjoyed Terraria combat. It did not need, in my opinion, stronger bosses. As far as I am concerned, it could have been just as good or even better without bosses. I spent over 300 hours playing Terraria; less than 30 of them were spent preparing for or fighting bosses. This is how important bosses were for me.


For Starbound, I'll take whatever they have for combat and bosses, even if "whatever" means nothing. That's not what I'm looking for in the game. It wasn't for Terraria either. Starbound should have a lot more to offer in terms of exploration and that is enough for me to know that I'll enjoy the game. Also, flashlight will make exploration much more enjoyable for me.

[miauw62]

I'm expecting it to be Terraria with more stuff. Honestly, as long as the movement and combat mechanics are solid and not horribly broken and awkward to use I'm fine with just flying around space exploring random planets, at least for a while.

If I get to do that, and there's some kind of neat stuff to be found throughout the worlds I'll be happy. I could probably get my money's worth just spelunking and building cool bases on the planets they've shown already in screenshots. They all look amazing, I think.

I agree with this. About 15 euros for a blocky game where you can build bases and explore randomly-generated planets, with friends, with the promise of there likely being more? Doesn't sound like a waste of money to me.

[Silfurdreki]

I'm expecting it to be Terraria with more stuff. Honestly, as long as the movement and combat mechanics are solid and not horribly broken and awkward to use I'm fine with just flying around space exploring random planets, at least for a while.

If I get to do that, and there's some kind of neat stuff to be found throughout the worlds I'll be happy. I could probably get my money's worth just spelunking and building cool bases on the planets they've shown already in screenshots. They all look amazing, I think.

I agree with this. About 15 euros for a blocky game where you can build bases and explore randomly-generated planets, with friends, with the promise of there likely being more? Doesn't sound like a waste of money to me.

Exactly! I'm not saying that I wouldn't like more added complexity or awesome boss fights, I'm saying I'd probably consider the game to be good if it only had what we've seen in screenshots and streams. It's mostly a way of not setting expectations too high.

Spoiler: Still Off topic (click to show/hide)

As I said, I wasn't reacting strictly to what you said. That one sentence was really no big deal compared to lots of stuff I've heard or read.

Also, I haven't been reading much on Starbound forum and know next to nothing about this specific community. Always been wary of yet-unreleased-games communities. Although you kind of prove my point by assuming that the writing quality and topics are any indication of people age. Tons of people, adults mind you, never improved their socialization skills beyond what it was when they started playing WoW ages ago. SMS, in-game chat, livestreams' chatroom, Facebook and Twitter further contributed to making people blatantly illiterate.

Two things really annoy me. First, when people assume that anyone being immature, stupid or irresponsible is necessarily a child/preteen/teen, which could not be further from the truth. Second, ironically, when people can't stand children/preteens/teens acting like children/preteens/teens. If someone's interests and pastimes happens to also attract a younger audience, they better be ready to show some minimal level of tolerance for children being children and preteens acting like preteens. Otherwise it's like going to see a Disney movie in theatre and complaining about children making noise, laughing or moving around.

Anyway, I'm done with this derai... until next time I see someone blame the 10, 12 or 13 years old for unrelated reasons at least.

HEre's some actual content for once. I already saw it on the PVP stream, but if no one caught that...



They have a specific set of pixel art blocks from the get-go. I'm assuming that there's different ones for both background and foreground as these seem to be background and the ones I saw couldn't be moved through.

All blocks will be paintable, IIRC, and can be either placed in the background or foreground. There's no specific background/foreground blocks, like in Terraria. At least that's what I've gathered.

[alexwazer]

All blocks will be paintable, IIRC, and can be either placed in the background or foreground. There's no specific background/foreground blocks, like in Terraria. At least that's what I've gathered.

Yup, I remember reading about both the painting and the absence of distinction between background/foreground. It should speed up building which is always nice. If you also don't have to remove the background to build underground, that would be awesome. I don't remember reading about that, one way or another.

[Neonivek]

It did not need, in my opinion, stronger bosses

Whelp that doesn't sound good for Starbound if people legitimately like "I walk into you" as a boss.

By the by "Stronger" doesn't mean tougher, Stronger means "better" as in better designed.

you can't accept that it is the same for Terraria, because you found combat unsatisfactory

You do too if bosses were so unsatisfactory that their exclusion completely unaffected the game.

As well you don't give any glowing recommendation of the combat, nor that you even think combat was particularly good or rewarding.

--

Anyhow, the general opinions of the community are indicative of the quality of Starbound as well. Which it isn't looking very good if the general opinion of Terraria's combat (of which the vast majority of enemies walk into you) is that it was sufficient.

The bar is so low right now. They just have to make sure there are enemies and people will hail this game.

----

Anyhow in my design philosophy the controls of Starbound and the combat of starbound need to be in Synch.

Because of the multitude of abilities that are likely to give you improved movement capabilities, the game I think they should look at for inspiration is the Megaman X series. Say what you will about it, they designed every boss and stage to be beatable even if you just starting out with the megabuster. While certainly the jets, armor, and helmet aided vastly, it wasn't a requirement to dodge and avoid attacks.

At the same time, unfortunately, I recognize that as an RPG of the Sandbox variety it means that stats are supposed to come to the forefront. Thus high-skill play may need to be avoided in order to make certain armors and weapons more important. Thus cheap shots, something I hate but whatever, may be required.

How did I figure out the weaknesses of a game before it is out just by recognizing what kind of game it was? XD

With the amount on their plate it means they are going to cut corners... I just wonder where.

[Frumple]

... exaggerating more than a little there, Neo. None of the bosses in Terraria were "I walk into you" with nothing else going on (none of them even walked, iirc, unless you count the invasions.), and only a particular subset of the enemies (Melee variations -- zombies, skeletons, possessed armors, werewolves... guess some of the goblins/snowmen would count there, too.) were like that without any notable variation (slimes jumped around, bats flew, chaos elementals did their little teleport thing, etc.). A majority was trying to collide with you to do damage, yes, but that kinda' describes the attack method of probably >75% of enemies in the platforming genre as a whole. With everything else, there was by and large as much variation in enemy attack and movement pattern as, well, many of the greats in the past. Most of the marios, just as an example, especially SNES era backwards. And seeing the edit... yeah, megaman, too. Most things either shot at you or tried to slam into you. Terraria kinda' covered that, too. MMX, at least, had a greater degree of bullet pattern variation, sure, but... not terribly much beyond that, in comparison, at least for normal stage enemies. Bosses were somewhat more involved, but to a large extent that was due to having a set arena. With that latter case in relation to Starbound... we'll see. They definitely seem more willing to use set pieces alongside and to enhance the procedural stuff (which, hey, roguelike ethos. I'm down with vaults.), which might leave room for some more environmentally involved enemies. There's been absolutely no suggestion there will be, though.

Terraria definitely could have been spruced up with some extra attack/bullet patterns and probably some more interesting movement patterns (wall crawling/bouncing, etc. I'm reminded of sting chameleon. Should steal that, heh.), but it honestly wasn't too far out of line with a great deal of the platforming genre, and pretty fancy in some places (wall fight and most of the hard mode bosses, ferex.). I've played many good platformers and a fair chunk of pretty terrible ones, and t'me T's platforming aspect was, well, better than many, if not most. Solid. Improvable (it's certainly leaning toward the simplistic side, but hell, it's more complex in that arena than, say, SMB1, which is pretty darn impressive for what was mostly a one man project.), definitely (what isn't?), but solid.

As for Starbound, we can be relatively certain that there'll be more movement types and attack patterns than T had, governed strongly by the procedural systems in place (though barring the set critters, whatever those end up being). I'm currently guessing we're going to see something along the lines of what (to use a relatively recent example I'm aware of) Magicmaker does with its bosses, where varying components of the critters definite how they act, drawing from a bit of a pool and quite possibly on the guns bullet/firing style patterns. We don't really know yet (unless a recent stream was particularly illuminating), though, so far as I'm aware. I've personally noticed a couple of attack patterns (ramming, short-ranged thrust) and one movement style (walking with a little jumping), which is pretty limited but noted as one of the things they're working on and intending to improve before release. We'll have to wait and see, yeah.

[Neonivek]

None of the bosses in Terraria were "I walk into you"

Then we don't have anything to talk about.

[alexandertnt]

I dont know if its intentional or not, but you appear to be asserting alot of what you are saying as if its absolute truth.

Consider the following:

You say x is bad in regards to the quality/fun of a game
many people disagree and had fun regardless or even because of x
therefore x being bad is not absolute truth.

Diagnosis complete </reference>