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[anubite]

Games like Spore have been toted to have some kind of educational appeal. Spore was rubbish and as far as I'm concerned, failed in almost every simulation aspect it set out to create, so if that can be hailed as some great thing... then what about Dwarf Fortress?

Dwarf Fortress is the ultimate socio-economic simulator. Okay, well it's not perfect. There's the 'fantastical' element of dwarves and other creatures, but I think DF excels at representing the birth of 'civilization'. Every patch, Toady adds more complexity to the game, by adding in more real-world systems that effect dynamic economies.

I think it would be an excellent base to build some kind of Junior or High School related course. Of course, Dwarf Fortress doesn't teach itself, you'd need someone to help break down the material and get students to examine aspects of the world unfolding in front of them, but DF covers a wide variety of topics.

Firstly, there's the whole 'anthropological' notion of Dwarf Fortress. You're founding a city. One that shapes its own culture dynamically. Dwarves write in hieroglyphs, depicting their own history. You can see how they live by the materials they harvest, by the tools they harness, by the architecture of their city... and when a city is wiped out, you can examine the ruins, to discover how a certain dwarf expedition went. You can dissect the social structure by how the dwarves slept, ate and worked. You can piece together their history by examining engravings and artifacts. It's very hard to do this currently in-game, as well... I tend to never find my fortresses in adventure mode (I usually die), but I'm sure some day this should be easily possible. Such a class could have a predefined abandoned city for students to explore.

Secondly, there's a big geological aspect to Dwarf Fortress. Now, I've only taken introductory geology courses, but from the way minerals and such are located in DF, it seems rather true-to-life, though I'm sure this can be improved in time. Barring the whole [secret] beyond 150 Z levels, students could get an understanding for what kind of rocks are found underground, how groundwater systems work, how certain minerals are used in industry, and why some minerals are more valuable over others. You could a lot just on the whole economy of production. How is soap made? What's one method of producing coal? While DF doesn't 100% accurately represent these industries, it gives an important glimpse into them. How their use is integral to sustaining life and economy in a desolate, unforgiving wilderness.

While this isn't in the game yet so much, I think a socio-political aspect can also be explored. How trade and relationships with foreign governments effect the culture and history of a dwarven city. How dwarves interact with non-dwarves, how dwarves ostracize their own kind. How the actions of that one crazy recluse dwarf can cause calamity for fifty.

I don't think DF is ready to be considered as an educational tool yet - the interface needs to be overhauled for that (so it can be more easily picked up). Tools like Stonesense probably need to be a little more integrated as well, though the imagination aspect of dwarf fortress is also very powerful, so that's not quite as necessary. More systems need to be added to DF as well (actually, what does DF need to be stronger as an educational-resource? I'm not sure), but in 10 years, I could see DF being that potential undiscovered game, innovative educators are after.

Anyone agree? Or does DF not really belong in a classroom? Obviously, there are fantasy elements to it, but I don't think they detract from its educational potential. It helps to create a setting far and away from the 'real world'.

[Lumix]

Wall of text

I see what your getting at, But i dont think DF would work very well in classrooms, Perhaps as a demonstration of how hard micromanagement can be,

but for geology educational purposeses, i dont think it would work

[anubite]

Sorry that it's a 'wall'. Tried to keep it as short as I could

Why wouldn't it work though? In DF's current state, there's a huge investment of learning the game, but if that were to be removed and DF were easier to pick up...? I suppose it depends on what you're trying to get across. But I'd played DF for a year before I took an intro geology course, and I already knew half the minerals I had to memorize coming in (what their properties are, their uses in industry, etc.), so there's some kind of educational value there.

I was playing Age of Empires in the seventh grade and while world history courses aren't exactly difficult at that grade level, I knew more about history than most of my peers. Maybe it wasn't all exactly correct, but the potential for a game to teach is there. I suppose I'm just dwelling on the notion and sighing when games like Spore are priased, and DF remains relatively in the dark.

[Levi]

I can't really see DF as educational.  Its interesting, but there really isn't much practical there to learn. 

Sure you can learn the names of a few minerals, but you can do that in a much shorter time with just a textbook.

[Jelle]

No, just no. 
Unless you want to teach about things like kitten slaughter as lucrative industry and the like.

[i2amroy]

I remember that back in the 40d days someone actually managed to write a college paper on how DF models real world and various economic systems (communism vs. capitalism and all that. Mind you this was back when the economy still existed in DF). And that thread got into quite a bit about how DF could be applied in schools. I think some teacher who saw it actually managed to apply it to one of their classes even. Sadly these threads have been lost to the ravages of time (plus there was the whole forum server switch thing to help that along) but it does prove that DF can be used in an educational setting.

So personally I'm all for it! Though you would need to keep in mind that many times the education is located in a single part of DF at any given time, since it spans so many different fields.

Also

Sure you can learn the names of a few minerals, but you can do that in a much shorter time with just a textbook.

Personally I found it much easier to learn through DF since you are actually applying the knowledge that you learned rather then just memorizing it without ever actually using it. I mean several studies have shown that if you apply information as you learn it your rate of retention goes up by several orders of magnitude. And this all applies doubly to modding DF, where some of the information isn't even easily accessed in textbooks. I mean if you have a book out there that has a list of many minerals and their data (shear fracture point, bending abilities, and especially the melting point/phase change points. I can't tell you how long I've looked for the melting point of many of the materials in DF, since all the crystalline ones only seem to have data on their structure, not on their phase change points), I would probably be willing to buy that book off of you.

[Levi]

Yeah, but is spending two or three weeks playing a videogame in class really a worthwhile way to learn just the name and a melting point of some minerals?

I'm not saying DF isn't somewhat educational to play, but as an educational tool I think it would be terrible compared to an actual lecture/reading.

[i2amroy]

Really what I was getting at was not to use DF as a rote learning thing (so memorizations, though it certainly helps with those). I was getting more at the fact that DF can be used as a metaphor or an extended simulation for the more complex things (such as various economic systems, though processes, or other complex systems).

[Loud Whispers]

What, do you want spontaneous insanity to become a real world problem?

Though the geographical side has some basis.

WHY DO I KNOW WHAT KAOLINITE IS

[Kipi]

I remember there was one member who actually used Dwarf Fortress as tool for education in some lower grade school. He (or she) used DF to  demonstrate all the problems of finding a new village, like securing food supplies, building shelter and so on. The version of DF used in this purpose had modified raws, for example humans were used instead of dwarves, goblins and kobolds were modded out, basically the game was made "safe for young children"...


FAKE EDIT:
Aha! Here is the thread I was talking about...
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25569.0

[anubite]

I can't really see DF as educational.  Its interesting, but there really isn't much practical there to learn. 

Sure you can learn the names of a few minerals, but you can do that in a much shorter time with just a textbook.

Except not everyone is a rote learner. Especially when some problematic students are problematic because all they want to do is play video games. Video games can be a gateway to broader interests, so as a tool, they are more flexible than textbooks, especially in non-traditional schools. Rote learning has a very steep price in my opinion: you sap interest in the student. It's hard to make a student rote learn for an entire semester, even if you break up such learning with small activities. Students just don't want to study, motivating them to do so is half the battle. Depending on what you want to do, dwarf fortress can be relatively resource-light, so it can be easily given as a supplemental homework assignment (in a beautiful theoretical world where Toady has redesigned its GUI) . Dwarf Fortress can be run on even old computers with poor graphics cards, provided the dwarf count remains relatively low.

I can assure you, it's much easier to keep track of 50 different kinds of minerals when you can say to yourself: "I've used that before." Perhaps in a simplistic and virtual manner, but I get excited when I strike Galena underground -- and it's easier for me to recognize and remember what Galena is because I have associated various feelings, events and games with it. I can't wait until Toady can afford to add material interaction into DF, and we can have lead poisoning from galena-made goblets

I mean, once computing gets sufficiently powerful, and if Toady sticks to dwarf fortress long enough to get complexity on that scale - you could tie in the fall of a dwarven fortress to the fall of the roman empire (one of the causes of Rome's downfall is likely the high amount of lead poisoning in its leaders [which causes seemingly random mental instability, so yes, that is a 'real world phenomenon' and societal factor]) - at least, one hypothetical path a student could explore.

While rote memorization might be more practical from a statistical stand point, it doesn't attempt to integrate knowledge with actual understanding, which is often facilitated through an action such as playing out a game (especially a game that attempts to simulate real-world cause-effect chains).

Maybe DF isn't comprehensive or efficient enough to build a class around, but still, I think, if Toady were to make DF's geology more complex in the future, and to add more economic uses for stone and to restrict how some stone can be used (based on its hardness factor and such), it could be used in such a learning environment to some beneficial effect, I think.

[Azated]

I'm a big believer in the idea that you learn more from applicable knowledge.

For example, I learned Japanese in school for eight years, yet I know more German from playing WWII based computer games.

However, DF would never be allowed in a public setting, like school. Can you imagine bringing up a computer in the middle of geology class to tell your sixth grade students what coal can be used for, but instead having to watch kittens explode into a million pieces because your people were bored of eating purple mushrooms?

That's just one example. Practically everything in Dwarf Fortress is ethically and morally wrong in some way. In order to make it 'suitable' for classroom use, you'd have to change so many absolutely necessary pieces of the game, and that's completely counter-productive to the idea in the first place.


If you managed to get vanilla DF into the classroom, I think it would work quite well. It could be used in Engineering, Architecture, Geology, Hydrodynamics, Medicine, History, Warfare, Biology, Chemistry, and dozens of other fields, all of which would be immediately applicable knowledge.

If my teachers used DF as a learning tool, I would pledge undying allegiance to their most godly of teaching methods.

[werechicken]

I think it'd be a good economic simulator, what with the work involved in keeping everyone employed. Not to mention the fact you'd have to balance resources, it'd have to be after toady fixes the economy so that coins don't destroy your frame rate.

As for the stuff mentioned in that granite block of text I imagine that there are much clearer ways

[kaenneth]

I could see a DF style game being useful; along the lines of Oregon Trail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregon_Trail_(video_game)

actially, reading the TVTropes page on Oregon Trail made me wonder about a 'hybrid' mode for embarking... where you actually have to drive a wagon train from a mountainhome if an adventure mode-like mode, until you reach a suitable site...

that would be awesome.

[Mickey Blue]

Toy story could be good education in a tangential sense (for example different kinds of stone or wood, different kinds of animals, etc) but truly 'educational'.. I don't really see how.