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[knutor]

Somewhere I read, high Imagination was the ideal attribute for Engraving.  I dunno how truthful that was or who did the SCIENCE, but a Legendary Engraver with a high Imagination, often masterworks the wall, floor, or slab.  Never compared it to a low imagination, as I always set my high Imagination dwarfs, to engraving, and only engraving. 

I agree with Yarr and Sheb.  Seperation of skills and do-overs of poorly designed walls in main corridors are both a must fix.  The game with this has two, too many, detractors.

Reasoning:  Dwarfs should be able to create a masterwork 'Perfect' fortress, if they put in the time.  Unlike the lower skilled builders, Humans and Elves, who should suffer poorly when it comes to rock designs.  This is a key racial skill, it should be backwards engineered and forward fantasized.

Also, I think a masterwork engraving on a slab, is deserving of an event. Yes this could produce a nasty loop, but legendary art, is after all spectacular.  It would also produce a problem with the naming of slabs and artifacts.  But the potential should be there, when making slabs, to STICK the landing, as it were.

Sincerely, Knutor

[Maklak]

First of all both tasks, engraving and stone smoothing, should use the same skill. This would keep it relatively easy to have legendary engraver (or even grand master). If those tasks use different skills it would be nearly impossible to have a legendary engraver outside the moods.

Now, what I suggest is to separate the two tasks in terms of labor; while the skills is same for both labors each one must be enabled separately. Do you want to have legendary engraver to smooth out that quarters dedicated to king while those who are still training the skill keep on smoothing the halls? Just enable the engraving labor for the legendary dwarf and disable it from rest of the dwarves. They still keep on smoothing stone as that labor is separated from engraving, thus disabling engraving doesn't prevent them to smoothing stones.

Yes, this.

A separation of 'work at mason's workshop' and 'build wall' as well as 'construct mechanism' and 'install mechanism' would also be nice, but can be more or less done by restricting workshops to high skill levels.

I also support merging of some skills. At the very least there should be synergies (say effective skill = max {skill, max{similar skills}/5 }, so a legendary cheese maker would have automatic 3 in milking. Well, maybe 5 is too conservative, and 2 would be better, or between 2 and 5 depending how related the skills are)
* Crossbow-making should be split between carpentry and bone carving (but maybe keep the bowyer's workshop). If you even use marksdwarves, they usually get metal crossbows (made with weaponsmithing, which you want to train anyway). There is never need for enough wood / bone crossbows to justify having a bowyer. Arrows should be made at bowyer's workshop, tough.
* Mining skill is useful for combat, but wood cutting isn't. I propose merging Wood cutting and Axedwarf.
* Animal Care, Shearing, Bee Keeping and animal training 
* Trapping and small animal dissection are pretty useless.
* Tanning might be merged with either butchery or leather working.
* Wood burning merge with Furnace Operating
* Soap making / lye making / potash making - these skills are not often used, and require separate workshops.
* Milling, Pressing, Plant processing, Wax Working 
* Plant Gathering and Farming
* Milking and Cheese making
* Spinning and weaving and separate labour to collect webs.
* Fishing, Fish Cleaning and fish dissection and prioritize fish cleaning over fishing.
* Blacksmithing, Metal Crafting
* Gem Cutting and Gem setting - keep separate labours, but merge skills for easier training of jewellers 
* Wood crafting and Carpentry.
* Pottery and Glazing
* Siege engineering and Mechanics

[zwei]

I don't really agree with skill combinations and synergies as it it outside scope of this particular thread, but what i propose is:

Each skill that has both workshop and non-worskhop effects should have two labors (Masory + Stone construction; Carpentry + Wood construction, Mechanics + Trap construction + Trap maintenance, Weaving + Silk collection, Blacksmiting + Metal contruction, Clay collection, Sand collection ...).

This is something that has to be done regardless of splitting/combining/synergizing.

[Maklak]

Yes, zwei. What You wrote is more important than skill synergies and merging less useful skills.

[orius]

Mergng some of the more limited skills would be useful.

Stoneworking might be more convenient broken up like this: Stonecrafters can make furniture and stuff as well as crafts, add Stone Cutters to churn out blocks, Masons build walls, and Engravers smooths and engrave and such (or have ther mason build and detail).  This way, the experienced stoneworkers make stuff that you may need, while you can just dump peasants on building a big project.

Some of those skill merges I already do in game since they're related and none of them are particularly labor intensive.  So I have a single shepherd in charge of milking, cheesemaking, and shearing.  The leatherworker also tans hides.  Lye and soap making is handled by the same dwarf.  Millers also process plants.

[Maklak]

@ orius
I use generalists to do hauling, and all jobs that don't impact quality, like butchery, milking and furnace operation. The downside is that the rotation makes training these jobs (except furnace operation on thousands of units of copper of course) too slow to be any good, but the upside is good response time for any of those tasks.
My specialists take care of all quality influencing jobs, and I set workshops to only accept highly skilled masons and mechanics.

Merging of some skills seems unlikely to happen, but separate labors based on the same skill just might, and would be useful.
Another only slightly related feature would be 'don't use this workshop for manager assigned jobs'. A simple switch like that, would also make managing workforce easier.

[ivanthe8th]

I don't really agree with skill combinations and synergies as it it outside scope of this particular thread, but what i propose is:

Each skill that has both workshop and non-worskhop effects should have two labors (Masory + Stone construction; Carpentry + Wood construction, Mechanics + Trap construction + Trap maintenance, Weaving + Silk collection, Blacksmiting + Metal contruction, Clay collection, Sand collection ...).

This is something that has to be done regardless of splitting/combining/synergizing.

Bit of a necro here, but the board does specifically state to look for old suggestions rather than make new threads.

I'd just like to request that Toady make Silk/Sand/Clay collection into a separate labor from item hauling.

I'm doing a pottery-heavy fort, and I've had to turn off announcements of job cancellations while my burrowed dedicated clay-gatherers try and move items in other parts of the fort. It would be much less of a headache to just give them their own labor.

Thank you.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just throwing my opinion to the original suggestion:

First of all both tasks, engraving and stone smoothing, should use the same skill. This would keep it relatively easy to have legendary engraver (or even grand master). If those tasks use different skills it would be nearly impossible to have a legendary engraver outside the moods.

Now, what I suggest is to separate the two tasks in terms of labor; while the skills is same for both labors each one must be enabled separately. Do you want to have legendary engraver to smooth out that quarters dedicated to king while those who are still training the skill keep on smoothing the halls? Just enable the engraving labor for the legendary dwarf and disable it from rest of the dwarves. They still keep on smoothing stone as that labor is separated from engraving, thus disabling engraving doesn't prevent them to smoothing stones.

Another thing where this has some uses is when tapping to either underground water source or magma; currently all dwarves who have the stone detailing enabled are candidates to carving the fortification, thus risking their lives. If you want to avoid risking your legendary dwarves then just disable the smoothing labor from them and they can still keep on making those engravings.

Agreed. I would have posted more or less the same thing if no one else had (although I didn't think of the fortifications thing).

-snip-
I also support merging of some skills. At the very least there should be synergies (say effective skill = max {skill, max{similar skills}/5 }, so a legendary cheese maker would have automatic 3 in milking. Well, maybe 5 is too conservative, and 2 would be better, or between 2 and 5 depending how related the skills are)

Sensible. It would cut down on the number of completely useless migrants.

* Crossbow-making should be split between carpentry and bone carving (but maybe keep the bowyer's workshop). If you even use marksdwarves, they usually get metal crossbows (made with weaponsmithing, which you want to train anyway). There is never need for enough wood / bone crossbows to justify having a bowyer. Arrows should be made at bowyer's workshop, tough.

"Never need for enough wood/bone crossbows to justify having a bowyer?" I heartily disagree. Making ammo should probably fall under bowyery, though.

* Mining skill is useful for combat, but wood cutting isn't. I propose merging Wood cutting and Axedwarf.

Not sure about merging, but having heavy synergy between the two I could see.

* Animal Care, Shearing, Bee Keeping and animal training

Also animal caretaking.

* Trapping and small animal dissection are pretty useless.

Yeah, I guess. Trapping could be merged with hunting, perhaps, and small animal dissection (as well as fish dissection) could be merged with fish cleaning or butchery. Or maybe all four skills could be rolled into one.

* Tanning might be merged with either butchery or leather working.

Probably leather working. Of course, since the tan hide reaction is in the raws, someone's going to point out that you can change it.

* Wood burning merge with Furnace Operating

Seems reasonable, unless...

* Soap making / lye making / potash making - these skills are not often used, and require separate workshops.

Probably lye- and potash-making should be rolled into one skill, possibly under either wood burning or soap making.

* Milling, Pressing, Plant processing, Wax Working

Not sure about wax working (which might be similar enough to pottery without the fuel to justify moving the one wax-working reaction to pottery), but since the rest are just different ways of squishing stuff, it's sensible.

* Plant Gathering and Farming

Makes sense. Usually, my planter is also an herbalist.
[quote[* Milking and Cheese making[/quote]
Makes sense.

* Spinning and weaving and separate labour to collect webs.

Yes, makes sense. Maybe a new hauling labor (web gathering), or maybe just an extension of whichever hauing labor it is to haul woven thread.

* Fishing, Fish Cleaning and fish dissection and prioritize fish cleaning over fishing.

Not sure about mixing fishing with the other two, but see above.

* Blacksmithing, Metal Crafting

If carpentry and woodcrafting, or masonry and stonecrafting, are kept separate, so should blacksmithing and metalcrafting.

* Gem Cutting and Gem setting - keep separate labours, but merge skills for easier training of jewellers

Maybe...

* Wood crafting and Carpentry.

You left masonry and stonecrafting off. As long as those are separate, woodcrafting and carpentry should be too.

* Pottery and Glazing

Sensible.

* Siege engineering and Mechanics

Might require a broadening of what mechanics covers, but not by much. Sensible, overall.

[Inarius]

I usually train with smoothing until my engraver become legendary. But the problem is that sometimes i want another one to be legendary, and I have then yo wait (because in this case, the other (already legendary) would be to fast for the other, which is still younger in the job).
I regret that :
- there is no artefact engraving, which could take several tiles of wall
- There is no scenery in engraving (the life of XX monster, who first destroyed XX and XX and XX and XX and then get struck by XX, or the life of a particular dwarf).

Separating smoothing and engraving could be a good idea. Or, linking smoothing to mason, as smoothing walls is (IRL) the job of the mason

[Silverionmox]

Trying to make reasonable skill groupings is impossible, because it's ultimately a matter of taste and playing style. Should stonecrafting be in the stoneworking, or in the crafting group? Weaving, farming or crafting? Butchery, animal handling or farming? Tanning: crafting, farming, or animal handling? etc.

There's related discussion in this recent thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110611.0) and on keywords "skill synergy", "skill system" etc.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I usually train with smoothing until my engraver become legendary. But the problem is that sometimes i want another one to be legendary, and I have then yo wait (because in this case, the other (already legendary) would be to fast for the other, which is still younger in the job).
I regret that :
- there is no artefact engraving, which could take several tiles of wall
- There is no scenery in engraving (the life of XX monster, who first destroyed XX and XX and XX and XX and then get struck by XX, or the life of a particular dwarf).

Separating smoothing and engraving could be a good idea. Or, linking smoothing to mason, as smoothing walls is (IRL) the job of the mason

First off: Engravers can go moody. They create mason-type objects, but gain engraving skill.
Second off: The type of smoothing most likely used by dwarves IDF involves a chisel to remove the parts of the rock that aren't smooth, and perhaps adding something to the little holes and pits, leaving a smooth surface. This is more similar to how dwarves presumably engrave than how they presumably make stone furniture. Also, how would you train engravers if smoothing trains masonry?

Trying to make reasonable skill groupings is impossible, because it's ultimately a matter of taste and playing style. Should stonecrafting be in the stoneworking, or in the crafting group? Weaving, farming or crafting? Butchery, animal handling or farming? Tanning: crafting, farming, or animal handling? etc.

There's related discussion in this recent thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110611.0) and on keywords "skill synergy", "skill system" etc.

The idea above was to merge skills, e.g. saying that small animal dissection is similar enough to fish dissection (since both of them are getting extracts from small animals) that they should be the same skill.

[King Mir]

I don't think reducing the number of skills is a priority, though some of that could be re-evaluated.

I do think that labors and skills should be separated. A given skill could be assigned to multiple labors. Possibly multiple skills could be assigned to the same labor, so that you can have civilian skills work like military skills, with broad skills and refined skills like archery and crossbow usage.

[Inarius]

First off: Engravers can go moody. They create mason-type objects, but gain engraving skill.

I didn't say "there should be artefact engravers" but "there should be artefact engraving". what you say is different from what i say.

For the rest, you're true, smoothing is the only way to improve engravers

[Maklak]

Normally I use DT to enable / disable engraving and either smooth stone or engrave. Never both at the same time, but it is annoying.

One overlooked possibility is a global setting similar to workshop profiles. You set 'minimum skill for engraving' at legendary and only legendary engravers will engrave, while everyone with the labour enabled will smooth stone. A good solution without splitting the labour or fiddling with DT.

[knutor]

..you're true, smoothing is the only way to improve engravers

Not sure this is true.  But I haven't done the SCIENCE.

Like the new cut gems skill, that cuts stones.. IE.  cut say, granite.  Cutting granite doesn't produce jeweller xps.  Nope. It doesn't.  Only cutting gemstones does.  Ever notice that about Cut stone?  Did you spend an evening trying to level up your jeweller on that huge pile of Gabbo?  I did.

So like that, I imagine the same can be said about engraving cart rails in unsmooth hallways?  I haven't done the science, have you?  Did he forgot to improve the dwarf engrave skill this time around, too.  It's the engravers who cuts the rails from unsmoothed halls, as opposed to the fella who builds the rails in the craft menu.  Sincerely, Knutor