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[tilly]

Personally, I think the interface Toady designed for this release was bogus. A lot of menu scrolling to equip for each individual dwarf which happens to be a pain in the neck after a long while. Especially, when most of your dwarves are dying and you have to make new squads frequently. I know you can use uniforms but, they are very general and assume your dwarves skills. I think Toady should consider going back to or revising the DF 2008 releases military setup. I believe it was more efficiant. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Coolnesstod]

I say nay to this, One reason being that the new military lets you make sure your dwarves have the armor you want on and that its easier to track whether or not they have it equipped. Also, the military screen is less chaotic imo then in 40d, mainly because not every dwarf is on the screen. But thats just me. 

[tilly]

I see what you're saying, but in 2010 all the dwarves show up for recruitment even the ones already in a squad making it difficult to remember who exactly is in each squad for example if you have 3 of them. In 40D you have all the dwarves on the screen yes but you see what squad they are assigned to and an easier interface to equip weapons and armor. Not to mention 40D was pretty buggy so alot of those problems you stated probably could be worked out coolnesstod.

[Coolnesstod]

I understand this, i did play back then. But the main thing is though, how about instead of going back to what worked previously, we test other options out and see what else can work. Then if say, the new military has certain things that are liked but other things unliked, and the old 40d had the things that are unliked now, that were liked then, combine the 2 into a new military system, both effective and easy to understand.

[tilly]

That's what I mean, a revision of the old system that for the most part worked. I do like the way you can control your armies in 2010 and station them where you need them but that wasn't the focus when I started the thread. It's just getting rid of the countable menu's that consume the military. I'm sure a hybrid would work excellent. however, I don't see the equiping aspect as fun as the old slider method just more frustrating. I cring everytime I have to equip my dwarves. Just because of the time consuming menus you have to go through to get that iron sword in Urist's hands. I suppose you could argue it though saying "Just learn the hotkeys"  but I found the arrow key very sufficiant and it's not like you couldn't use the slider method with the enter button for more control over the type of item you want.

[Coolnesstod]

Any easy way to solve your problem, just assign a weapon to whatever dwarf and have him with metal armor(the uniform), then he will put on the best armor he can find and wear it till something even better comes along. Problem solved, unless, you know, you want to assign him full iron armor and have him wear only that, then yes, it is very tedious.
The metal uniform works very well its just that if your dwarf sees some copper boots and some iron boots, he will grab the closer ones, not the better ones. This is annoying but easily fixable by changing some files around to make military pick the best armor they can get instead of the closest armor. Though i dont think it will be fixed in time for the next update. I could be wrong. 

[Kipi]

I know you can use uniforms but, they are very general and assume your dwarves skills. I think Toady should consider going back to or revising the DF 2008 releases military setup.

In what way does the system assume the skills? As far as I noticed it doesn't, unless you use "preferred weapon", in which case the dwarves pick up the weapon they are most skilled with.

I see what you're saying, but in 2010 all the dwarves show up for recruitment even the ones already in a squad making it difficult to remember who exactly is in each squad for example if you have 3 of them. In 40D you have all the dwarves on the screen yes but you see what squad they are assigned to and an easier interface to equip weapons and armor. Not to mention 40D was pretty buggy so alot of those problems you stated probably could be worked out coolnesstod.

When you highlight a dwarf from list it shows the name of the squad they are in if such squad exists. So you don't have to actually remember who belonged to which squad.

And I think in 40d it wasn't just buggy. For example you weren't able to specify the materials of weapons/armor without micromanaging the stockpiles and using forbidding and stationing creatively.


Now, while I think the current system is better than in 40d, it still needs lot of work. The screens don't work 100% logically all the times and saving uniform templates to be used in all fortresses would be nice. If it was possible to create a uniform, save it and the never recreate it again even if you generate a new world would make the process of creating a squad far better.

[ZzarkLinux]

Especially, when most of your dwarves are dying

I'll nitpick this one thought from you 

I generally like the new system, but you raise some good points IMO with this one statement:
1) Dwarves don't move with good tactics e.g. the "trickle out to die 1-at-a-time" effect. The more fatalities, the more time you spend paused in the military screen cleaning everything up.
2) The current equip system is "flaky" in some ways, or it depends on too many random variables. So when I, as the player, have to clean up after a lot of dwarves die, then there's even more tedious micromanagement
3) The current equipment sticks "per-squad" and "per-slot". I wish there was an option of "per-dwarf" so that when I shuffle Urist between squads, then "his equipment" follows him instead of assuming the new squad.

At least, that's my micromanagment experience

[tilly]

ZzarkLinux I see you are on the same page as me.

It's not that the system is bad it's just bogus (displeasing) having to micromanage every 20 minutes in a hostile world where settlements are harder to manage to begin with.

3) The current equipment sticks "per-squad" and "per-slot". I wish there was an option of "per-dwarf" so that when I shuffle Urist between squads, then "his equipment" follows him instead of assuming the new squad.

I believe I made this same statment when I was talking about the 40D slider method and how it was much easier to set them up "per-dwarf".
Each one could be assigned to a squad and the individual equiped without much effort. However, like previously mentioned it was just buggy as hell. I'm sure the 40D method was better but I guess we'll have to wait and see what Toady's got up his sleeve.

[Vattic]

1) Dwarves don't move with good tactics e.g. the "trickle out to die 1-at-a-time" effect. The more fatalities, the more time you spend paused in the military screen cleaning everything up.

Hopefully formations will fix this particular problem. They were planned for the 0.31.x releases but Toady ran out of time; I'm not sure when we will see them added.

[knutor]

I agree with Tilly, it doesn't feel at all like I'm in control when I use the military menu, or that squad menu to react to things.  The only useful feature in the squad menu is the move command. 

The rest there is all dependent on individual dorf movement speeds, and locations.  Heck it doesn't even center on the squad leader, or a squad member, lord only knows where 'center on squad' will take ya, but its not to the action, or the squad.  The way I read things, agi is good for archers, and str is good for melee, yet the military interface assume all are the same, just like Tilly said.  Its not dependent on dorfs stats. 

Having it use the highest attained weapon skill is WAY wrong.  As some fortresses don't even have those weapons.  Or the craftstations to make those weapons.  The wrong way to go, indeed.  Many if not all the visiting migrants are high level and the wrong sex.  Low agi and str, low disease, and high in combat, is a recipe for disaster.  As is mixed sex squads. 

The game should put baby wielding women, and lovers in a uniformless AWOL squad.  The end user shouldn't be burdened to micromanage the AI's 'caring' interactions and dwarf relationships.  It is such a time consuming headache to scroll through the entire list of dwarfs, or squads, when a baby is born.  Or just to find a named guy to replace some goof, who decided to stand on thawing ice, or trip into an un-ramped pool.

I'm in 100% agreement with this suggestion.  *thumbs WAY up*  Military is the core of conflicts, and the basis for many players fun, aside from building up defenses.  If it were more intuitive, the game could only benefit in all areas as a result of the freed up micromanagement steps a change in it would inevitably produce.

Great suggestion, *lifts glass* heres hoping Toady sees it.

Sincerely, Knutor

[Babylon]

I have to disagree strongly with Knutor.  managing dwarven relationships and such is a huge part of the fun.  I would like the military screen to be searchable and to show more information about the dwarves, scrolling through 200 dwarves to find the one you want is a hassle even when dwarf therapist makes it easy to pick out the one you want.

[knutor]

I have to disagree strongly with Knutor.

I don't mind that you disagree with me.  I'd prefer if my dorfs did there own thing, and left me to the design, and command decisions.  I see no fun undermining the games AI.  Especially when it behaves counter intuitively, and doesn't even inform me of injured soldiers, in a clear and precise fashion.  If a soldier can't lift his armor, he should be smart enough to go AWOL, or on injured leave.  If a mother has a baby, she should be SMART enough to go AWOL, or medical leave.  Dumb AI, is at the core of this complaint, IMO.

Not the menus or the interface.  I'm completely satisfied in the crafting menus, and the way the game allows me to setup activity zones, without spoon feeding bearded 3rd grade dropouts.

Additionally, we're not discussing Therapist here.  Its a good tool, I use it, too.  Military in latest version is the discussion.  Also, I often derail threads myself, unwittingly.  I'm not even a good one to mention this, I've derailed more threads than I care to mention.  Therapist is only informative, we can't use it to place dwarfs into squads for DF thereby trumping DF, itself.  This as far as I know, which is only what is in the latest version must be done in Toady's user unfriendly military menus, inside DF itself.  Sure its nice to see there data, but to do anything with it, we have to bang our heads, once more, against Toady's user unfriendly military menus.

I would really have liked to play the older version, I've only ever read great reviews of its features, as opposed to this latest monstrosity of menu driven insanity.  Is the old version runable thru Dosbox?  I'd love to cross compare the menu options, to better compare the relationships between game version.

Sincerely, Knutor

[Splint]

Being able to assign a squad wide weapon would be nice, over having to tell each one to wield x weapon seperate.
And I can only hope this formations deal includes an assemble at X order, hold position (So they don't do that whole drip to thier doom method,) withdraw to try and save at least SOME veterans, and a better menu for assigning dorfs to squads.
Perhaps hide already assigned dorfs. And I wholly agree with something to tell you a dorf is too injured to fight, like a less obsrutced thing reading, say 5 axedwarves, 4 speardwarves, 1 incapacitated to let you know there's an invalid member who shouldn't or cant go and fight, at which point you can select the squad, look at the members and in place of thier proffesion, it'll just say "Name, incap." as a way of saying the dumbass hurt himself/ got beat down by a thief/ insert absurd cause of death/injury here. That last one would probably never see the light of day since this thing can only do so much, no matter how in depth.

Probably missed the point, but those are my two cents on military improvemnets.
Pardon any ignorance, as I haven't exactly mastered fortress military too well nor played the older version, much to my sadness.

[agatharchides]

I have to disagree strongly with Knutor.

I don't mind that you disagree with me.  I'd prefer if my dorfs did there own thing, and left me to the design, and command decisions.  I see no fun undermining the games AI.  Especially when it behaves counter intuitively, and doesn't even inform me of injured soldiers, in a clear and precise fashion.  If a soldier can't lift his armor, he should be smart enough to go AWOL, or on injured leave.  If a mother has a baby, she should be SMART enough to go AWOL, or medical leave.  Dumb AI, is at the core of this complaint, IMO.

Not the menus or the interface.  I'm completely satisfied in the crafting menus, and the way the game allows me to setup activity zones, without spoon feeding bearded 3rd grade dropouts.

Additionally, we're not discussing Therapist here.  Its a good tool, I use it, too.  Military in latest version is the discussion.  Also, I often derail threads myself, unwittingly.  I'm not even a good one to mention this, I've derailed more threads than I care to mention.  Therapist is only informative, we can't use it to place dwarfs into squads for DF thereby trumping DF, itself.  This as far as I know, which is only what is in the latest version must be done in Toady's user unfriendly military menus, inside DF itself.  Sure its nice to see there data, but to do anything with it, we have to bang our heads, once more, against Toady's user unfriendly military menus.

I would really have liked to play the older version, I've only ever read great reviews of its features, as opposed to this latest monstrosity of menu driven insanity.  Is the old version runable thru Dosbox?  I'd love to cross compare the menu options, to better compare the relationships between game version.

Sincerely, Knutor

If by the 'old version' you mean 40d then it works fine in windows. It was released in 2008, despite what it looks like.  Just go download it off the main page. I actually played it back when it was the lastest and I have to say that it's a lot easier to get used to and set up a military with, but actually getting it to do what you want was harder.