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[Tellemurius]

Dirt is a hell of alot more than just dust, its more about biomass, minerals are really a tiny part of it.  Scientists have been trying to recreate dirt in a lab for years without success, soils are hideously complicated structures.

  The problem with Hydroponic farming is the closed system problem, if you keep just using the waste from the plants and whatever human waste you get a hold of for nutrients in a closed system, you can never quite collect as much as you had last time, if you can find other stuff to add in its ok.  Its finding the right stuff that is the issue

Next in line: Space alligators and worms

[jester]

Dirt is a hell of alot more than just dust, its more about biomass, minerals are really a tiny part of it.  Scientists have been trying to recreate dirt in a lab for years without success, soils are hideously complicated structures.

  The problem with Hydroponic farming is the closed system problem, if you keep just using the waste from the plants and whatever human waste you get a hold of for nutrients in a closed system, you can never quite collect as much as you had last time, if you can find other stuff to add in its ok.  Its finding the right stuff that is the issue

Next in line: Space alligators and worms

I ahhhh... whut?

[mainiac]

Dirt is a hell of alot more than just dust, its more about biomass, minerals are really a tiny part of it.  Scientists have been trying to recreate dirt in a lab for years without success, soils are hideously complicated structures.

  The problem with Hydroponic farming is the closed system problem, if you keep just using the waste from the plants and whatever human waste you get a hold of for nutrients in a closed system, you can never quite collect as much as you had last time, if you can find other stuff to add in its ok.  Its finding the right stuff that is the issue.

Why couldn't you just refine the elements for dirt and let the bacteria munch on them for a while?  Bacteria would be pretty easy to get up there.

Hydroponics wouldn't need to be a closed system.  Carbon-oxides would be a byproduct of several mining processes and used for carbon.  Water could be acquired from lunar water deposits or comets and the hydrogen from that water would be reserved for agriculture.  Trace elements could be imported.  The atmosphere wouldn't need nearly as much nitrogen if you are using hydroponics not traditional agriculture.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm telling you guys. Aeroponic farming. Way, way better for space.

[Andrew425]

I don't understand why anyone is concerned about the moon colony revolting.

Their would never be enough people up there to do that.

Plus most of them would be military men who would follow orders.

I think it would be way less expensive to manufacture stuff on the earth then send it to the moon then the otherway around. The cost of transporting an entire factory just to make nuts and bolts would be tremendously expensive.

Research rail gun technology and launch ships into space with that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I could see individuals who were once in the armed forces being more prime candidates for a moon colony because of their physical aptitude, ability to perform under intense pressure, and emotional hardening, but I don't see much reason that active service members would be sent with the colony.

War isn't on the table for a lunar colony.

[Valid_Dark]

I don't understand why anyone is concerned about the moon colony revolting.

Their would never be enough people up there to do that.

Plus most of them would be military men who would follow orders.

I think it would be way less expensive to manufacture stuff on the earth then send it to the moon then the otherway around. The cost of transporting an entire factory just to make nuts and bolts would be tremendously expensive.

Research rail gun technology and launch ships into space with that.

they wouldn't be manufacturing stuff on the moon to send to earth, but to send to space,
it'd be cheaper to make stuff in space or on the moon and send it to space or the moon than it would be to make stuff on earth and send into space or to the moon, or send materials from earth into space to be manufactured up there.

[jester]

The military arent known for being able to deal well situations that dont involve shooting at stuff and the like, or providing for themselves.
  And in terms of railguns, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Babylon  would be pretty nifty for blasting care packages at the moon.
 
 Yep, Aeroponic farming is the way to go, unless your are short on energy, then there can be some issues.  But if you are living on a moonbase, this is probably where you are getting your lettuce from.  If you arent living off algae and mineral soup.

On making soil:  again there is a hell of alot more to biomass than dumping some bacteria onto a pile of crap.  Entire colonies of bacteria work together in complex ways that we just dont fully understand and have not yet been able to replicate

[Starver]

Thats out of topic too, the reasons we have been laying down aren't 'lifeboat'

To be honest, I may have been emphasising that aspect, in sections of my replies.

(But in a "lifeboat everywhere" sense, with various non-lifeboat justifications for the Moon to be included as a "while we're waiting for the need to use the lifeboats" resource.  Also because when people say "You can't do that" enough and I honestly think you can I feel obliged to fight from that particular corner...)

Dirt is a hell of alot more than just dust, its more about biomass, minerals are really a tiny part of it.  Scientists have been trying to recreate dirt in a lab for years without success, soils are hideously complicated structures.

I suggest start from first principles, rather than try shortcuts.  Get lichens and mosses bedded onto moonrocks, and move on from there.  Microterraforming a cavern, a bit at a time.  I'm sure there are ways to actually speed things up, but I'm not saying "Let's get soil within a year", I'd be happy over many decades, a few centuries.  Mainly because I don't see the need for soil except for hydroponic-awkward plants that might be considered 'exotic' at best during the initial phases (can have goshdarn real soil carted up, if they're something you want to grow in small numbers, anyway, this is all prior to any moment of isolation, which I've already indicated isn't an aim, merely something that may happen)

The problem with Hydroponic farming is the closed system problem, if you keep just using the waste from the plants and whatever human waste you get a hold of for nutrients in a closed system, you can never quite collect as much as you had last time, if you can find other stuff to add in its ok.  Its finding the right stuff that is the issue

Not insurmountable.  Again, something that'll be worked out over time, before there might be any crucial snipping of resources.  There could be a small crate of selenium compound (oh the irony!) sent up at some point, along with all the other trace-element sources, ready to be used if you need to pepper the nutrient mix with some additional trace elements due to some going missing.


As to the alligators and worms, I understand the worms (part of the soil-making cycle, is what I'm thinking), but as I'm unfamiliar as the beneficial aspects of alligators in an ecosystem (except for keeping the number of pythons/yappy dogs/Darwin-elegible humans down, or something) I can't give you any explanation for that unless it's a "lost in the sewer" reference.

I don't understand why anyone is concerned about the moon colony revolting.

I think I'm the only one who mentioned revolt, so I'll take this question...

(There) would never be enough people up there to do that.

By my plan, there would be.  Maybe it's not "We pwn 34r7h n0w!" revolutions and instatement of a Lunar Elite who control affairs back down on the big green'n'blue, although I may have mentioned energy transfer beams being realigned and home-made missiles being suddenly a threat to Groundside, but more the old "We don't need you any more, we're sufficient and don't need to kowtow to you.  That'd be quite far down the history of Moon settlement, of course, once they've sneaked in whatever means of self-supply the home government(s) have been denying them to keep them on the resupply leash.

Plus most of them would be military men who would follow orders.

Even current astronauts are less and less military (mostly pilot-types, anyway, notoriously independent if they want to be) and there's a large mainly scientific contingent.  In the future I'm envisaging, you'd have civil engineers and... well, miners and rig-jockeys.  Orders would be followed by these in a "It's my health and safety at stake" way by some, and a "This is orderly conduct" by others, but if a stupid order came in from someone Groundside disconnected from the realities of life (I can think of so many possibilities I'm not even going to bore you with them) then sensible disobedience might occur, but be seen as awkward disobedience.  Escalations occur, as they often do, neither side talking the other side's language (poor, put-upon company/government representative on the Moon looks like a traitor to his bosses back home and a lackey working for the stay-at-homes to the locals, and what he does could easily swing the situation into dangerous territory).

I actually think that there'd be a moratorium against actual military personnel based off-planet (there's already something of that for weaponry), which is not to say there wouldn't be a few people arranged in place...  But in deep with the situation, who knows where they would head, when a conflict of orders vs local situation occurs, so hardly a guaranteed preventative, there.

I think it would be way less expensive to manufacture stuff on the earth then send it to the moon then the otherway around. The cost of transporting an entire factory just to make nuts and bolts would be tremendously expensive.

You'd make nuts and bolts for space, on the moon.  And you wouldn't transport an entire factory, just a "starter kit", which has the capability to start fabricating materials that can be used to extend the factory complex.[/quote]

Research rail gun technology and launch ships into space with that.

Already mentioned, if you mean "from the Moon".  If you mean from the Earth then big mountains and vacuum tubes (see also "Space Fountain" in your favourite online resource) are probably necessary.

Hey, do I see a lot of ninjas, again?

[Eagleon]

It would actually be hideously easy for moon residents to revolt, or at least muck things up long enough for people to realize that losing a multibillion dollar installation to sabotage isn't really worth denying token recognition as a nation and whatever silly demands they make. Provided access to even a moderately powerful laser - something constructable in your garage with equipment and materials far less advanced than what you'd have to have available on a moon base - any payload or transport sent towards the moon could be detectable by radar well in advance of their arrival, given lack of atmospheric interference, and then it's only a matter of having a laser powerful enough to overcome the radiative heat-loss of whatever they're sending. If you've got a rail delivery method for your moon-gadgets, you could also kindly send Earth a moon-bomb made from likely plentiful moon-uranium.

I suggest start from first principles, rather than try shortcuts.  Get lichens and mosses bedded onto moonrocks, and move on from there.  Microterraforming a cavern, a bit at a time.  I'm sure there are ways to actually speed things up, but I'm not saying "Let's get soil within a year", I'd be happy over many decades, a few centuries.  Mainly because I don't see the need for soil except for hydroponic-awkward plants that might be considered 'exotic' at best during the initial phases (can have goshdarn real soil carted up, if they're something you want to grow in small numbers, anyway, this is all prior to any moment of isolation, which I've already indicated isn't an aim, merely something that may happen)

This sounds like a really, really bad idea - once you start a cycle of soil erosion, it's difficult to stop. Introducing lichen spores means you'll never get them out again, sans some thermal cleaning, and even then it'd be easy for some to persist. Granted, if your cavern is beneath a couple hundred feet of moonrock, it might not be a huge problem for some hundreds of years, but the problem still exists for access seals and such. And if you kept it confined to a clean-room rock garden, you'd still have spores drifting everywhere in the colony, into scientist's lungs, etc. I think a better solution would be bioengineering plants to do the same jobs of lichen. Much easier to see a seed than a microscopic spore.

I think I'm the only one to mention it here, otherwise I wouldn't say anything, but in many ways Titan has become more attractive for colonization than Mars. Obviously it's a much further target, and a human-occupied craft capable of reaching it safely would practically require construction in orbit, but the abundance of hydrocarbons and thick, non-toxic(!) atmosphere make it practically heaven compared to the Moon. It's a hell of a lot colder, and the engineering for that may be challenging, but you also have huge amounts of heating fuel, ample protection from radiation, ready and plentiful access to water, lots of nitrogen to cut air in a similar way as on Earth, and resources for plastics production. Even though air density is greater, the gravity is one seventh that of Earth, meaning escaping the surface would be different (definitely aircraft or balloon assist of some sort), but much less challenging than on Earth, if not the Moon, and definitely easier than Mars.

[mainiac]

A lunar revolt wouldn't really matter.  Earth has a lot of resources the moon wants and is willing to pay to import.  The moon has a shitload of solar energy the earth wants and can be used for scientific endevors.  Both sides profit from this arrangement.  At the same time the lunatics are going to continue to want more colonists because a bigger colony has a higher standard of living.

Even if the lunatics "revolt", very little would change except a little money gets shuffled around.  Both sides would want to keep trading in the same ways.  It's not a political marriage which either side might sever.  It's a trade bond which is naturally self healing.

If the space population (moon and elsewhere) gets big enough then the lunar dependence on earth could start to decline.  But if the space population get's that big I think we would actually start seeing a pretty sizable exodus from earth towards O'Neil cylinder habitats.

[Max White]

We are worried about revolts? Really?
We could beat down a rebellion with nothing more than large lead bars.

[mainiac]

Thus completely destroying a huge investment...

[Max White]

Totally worth it. 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Somehow, I get the impression that bombing colonists, leaving them to suffocate and die in the vacuum of space, is not going to go over well with the general public.