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[varnish]

So if I've got an acquaintance who constantly talks about how he just hates black people, I shouldn't call him a fucking racist because hey, that'll make me just as bad as him?

Nice fucking equivalency you've got going on there. There's a tremendous difference between a word used to denigrate people on the margins, and word used to point out someone who is doing that.

[LoneTophat]

Let's go smear the bigot
(See what I did thar?)

[Leafsnail]

The other thing is that if you were to try to seriously respond to DrPoo's post you wouldn't even know where to begin since it's a rant about how much he hates a guy at his school with a homophobic element thrown in.  I mean, why would you hate someone for "Darwinistic reasons"?  Is his being less likely to procreate harmful to you in any way?

Tom has beliefs that Bob strongly disagrees with, and believes are unhealthy. Bob doesn't want to live in a society full of people who believe what Tom does, and actively speaks against them, often using the derogatory term X to refer to Tom and those who believes the way he does. Bob doesn't understand why anyone would believe what Tom does, or even why they would want to. And he's especially bothered that children are being taught to think the way that Tom does by people he thinks really ought to know better.

Isn't it interesting that the above paragraph makes just as much sense whether X is "faggot" or "homophobe?"

X eats food every evening.

Isn't it interesting how X fits equally well for both "The world's most prolific serial killer" and "Nelson Mandela"?  I think that this contrived example clearly proves that they are one and the same.

In any case, your paragraph doesn't work since homosexuality isn't a belief.

[LordBucket]

I shouldn't call him a fucking racist because hey,
that'll make me just as bad as him?

How is your calling him a "fucking racist" different than him calling someone a "fucking nigger?"

Why is one ok, but not the other? Why is your anger righteous while his is evil?

There's a tremendous difference between a word used to denigrate
people on the margins, and word used to point out someone who is doing that.

Oh, I see. Because calling someone a "fucking racist" is a completely neutral and objective descriptor, is that it?


"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster; and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche


To any homosexuals reading this, I simply repeat my caution: Consider how the anger and insults you've been given by others who disapprove of your choices has affected your life. Then ask yourself if you want to be the sort of person who vents anger and disapproval to others for their beliefs.

If you wish to have sex with other men, I offer you neither my reproach nor my approval. But the day you lash out at those who lash out at you...you become them.

Think carefully whether that's what you want.

[LordBucket]

I'm not sure where the logic lies

People who are homosexuals may have good reasons for being so. Perhaps they were born that way. Perhaps they were imprinted at an early age to like certain things. So too, people who are "homophobes" and "racists," they might also have good reasons for being what they are.

Forgive them.

[Vector]

In b4 Vector.

Howdy.


OP, I've been there.  It gets better.

Well, no, I haven't been there, as I'm a woman and apparently your experience was different than mine.  But I have been accused/asked if I was gay, mistaken for a guy despite long skirts and hair, told that because I was a boy it didn't matter how close people put their faces to my breasts, and frequently critiqued for the way I walk, talk, stand, sit, eat, and wear clothing.  Also swear, but that's neither here nor there.  It's much easier in college.  I do still get told that I'm completely sexually undesirable, but seriously, people generally leave me alone nowadays.


By the way, the difference between someone calling me a feminazi cunt who belongs pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, raped to "correct" my butchness, and my calling that person a misogynist is classically defined as power + prejudice.  In that particular example, my calling someone a misogynist is not a threat of violence.  The string of invectives are inherently violent.

Also, someone who is being racist is exhibiting a behavior.  Someone who has dark skin is not exhibiting a behavior.  Calling someone out for their actions is very different from hating someone for how they came into the world.

Your current suggestion completely removes the idea of personal responsibility.  I have no problem with venting disapproval to others for their beliefs and violent language.

[LoneTophat]

In b4 Vector.

Howdy.


OP, I've been there.  It gets better.

Well, no, I haven't been there, as I'm a woman and apparently your experience was different than mine.  But I have been accused/asked if I was gay, mistaken for a guy despite long skirts and hair, told that because I was a boy it didn't matter how close people put their faces to my breasts, and frequently critiqued for the way I walk, talk, stand, sit, eat, and wear clothing.  Also swear, but that's neither here nor there.  It's much easier in college.  I do still get told that I'm completely sexually undesirable, but seriously, people generally leave me alone nowadays.


By the way, the difference between someone calling me a feminazi cunt who belongs pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, raped to "correct" my butchness, and my calling that person a misogynist is classically defined as power + prejudice.  In that particular example, my calling someone a misogynist is not a threat of violence.  The string of invectives are inherently violent.

Also, someone who is being racist is exhibiting a behavior.  Someone who has dark skin is not exhibiting a behavior.  Calling someone out for their actions is very different from hating someone for how they came into the world.

Your current suggestion completely removes the idea of personal responsibility.  I have no problem with venting disapproval to others for their beliefs and violent language.

Well, having high functioning autism and you know, being as you said 'sexually undesirable' never did help me.
But! I am making a few friends and have a girl who flirts with me in Adult Ed so... I suppose after high school things HAVE gotten better.
I'm a humanitarian so I simply want to help people :\ The hatred that resides in ignorant individuals isn't permanent.
I've known my friend's parents who were totally against anything anti-conformist. (Which is ironic.)When she came out they went through the typical stages.
Denial, etc. Then they accepted it. Was quite the surprise <.< We suspected they'd cast her out like my family would me.

Anyway, as for your issues, it seems you're a strong driven individual. I suppose I need to drive the pessimist in myself out. Look at things in a better way.

[varnish]

Vector answered more sensibly than I could have.

I'm not going to write anything more right now, because I'd be breaking my rule of "not posting while angry", and it's off the original poster's intended topic anyway. Just... if you can't tell the difference between a racial slur and someone calling out that racism (or homophobia, or misogyny)... I don't even know.

[Heron TSG]

Forgive them.

That implies that they did something that must be forgiven. Accept them?

DrPoo, I think you need a larger sample size. I can say that the same did not occur for a popular guy who did that at my school.

[LordBucket]

That implies that they did something that must be forgiven. Accept them?

I will accept your correction.

But the idea that "racists and homophobes" have done nothing requiring forgiveness, and that it is better for us to simply accept them is not one that I expected to meet with casual acceptance in this thread.

[Neonivek]

That implies that they did something that must be forgiven. Accept them?

I will accept your correction.

But the idea that "racists and homophobes" have done nothing requiring forgiveness, and that it is better for us to simply accept them is not one that I expected to meet with casual acceptance in this thread.

Neither have I. It takes a lot of maturity to recognise that just because someone is racist it doesn't nessisarily mean they are a bad person or even one that requires pity or disgust.

[Vector]

You have HFA, yes?  You accept and gladly tolerate the Autism Speaks and pro-autistic genocide people?

[Heron TSG]

Ah, misunderstanding here. I thought you were telling him to forgive homosexuals, not homophobes. Yeah, I think that homophobic statements require forgiveness. They're offensive to people. Perhaps I'm just not mature enough to go full-on social pacifist, but that's my stance. Mean-spirited intentions should be met with positive opposition. Hate breeds hate, and all that.

(But forgiveness can neuter hate. Excuse me while I go eat my ice cream koan.)

[G-Flex]

I literally can't even think of how to respond in detail to how LordBucket is saying, because it's just that bad. (EDIT: I'm better at verbalizing things than I thought.)

Sexual orientation is not a choice. It can be said to be a lot of things, or a combination of a lot of things, but it is not a personal belief or a choice. How a person feels about racial topics is a matter of personal believe and choice. A person cannot necessarily choose how they, say, reflexively feel when dealing with someone of a different race, but they can choose the language they use when dealing with such people, can choose to try to have some perspective on the issue, and can try to improve their own situation and, at the very least, curb whatever racist tendencies they have.

Calling someone a racist is a good thing, because, unlike being black or gay, it is destructive behavior to be racist, and can be corrected, and if someone is engaging in such behavior, it is worth it to show that it isn't to be taken lightly, and to show to them that it is wrong. There are good, productive reasons for calling out someone on their racism, even if all you accomplish is making sure they don't get away with acting racist in the first place by responding negatively to it. There are no good, productive reasons for calling someone a "fucking nigger" or a "fucking faggot". I believe I have appropriately illustrated the differences.

Racism is something that people have valid cause to be angry about; it's destructive, ignorant, and harmful to all involved. The same is not true of someone's goddamn race or sexual orientation.

I can forgive people for bad behavior and misinformed/ignorant thoughts. People are products of their environment, after all. However, that doesn't mean I need to tolerate those bad behaviors, or shouldn't help to correct those thoughts when practical.


EDIT: I just realized that LordBucket literally refused to being homosexual as "choices". Great. Wonderful. I see I'm probably going to get nowhere with this.

[LoneTophat]

Well. Thanks for all the positive comments guys. Ignore the flamers/trolls. ._.