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[Gabeux]

Hello guys, what's up?
I decided to try on LCS 4.0 yesterday (only played a LCS 3.0 bit last year), and I have a question about crimes and 'evidence'.

My founder is a Ninja, and from all of his wanted crimes (including 1 Terrorism, failed attempt at tampering with the Nuclear Plant), like 95% of them, he was wearing the Ninja Costume.
Shouldn't the 'face protection' mask his identity or something?
Of course, there's always DNA..still, some crimes could have left no DNA at all..

Well, I just want to understand how the Justice would have evidence against him, if he is, well, a Ninja.
Any tips? 

Also, he and all my Captains (4 important people from the organization), is under a siege with no chance to escape/survive, so I'll probably give it up (losing is fun...  ) and face trial, just for the lulz.
Ah, this is my second game, and I save-scummed so I could understand some mechanics and other stuff before I try my true game.

--
HA, My founder and 2 Captains escaped the trial. That was VERY ninja. Now I just need to break the prison and free my other 2 captains..

[Neonivek]

I always figured they didn't need evidence to take you down.

Also if people didn't know it was the LCS doing it, it wouldn't affect the issues wouldn't it? (I always figured you intentionally left evidence or at least a calling card)

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Face protection doesn't do anything, I don't think; this isn't an oversight, just a feature that's never been implemented. Crimes currently are recorded by the game as just counts of things you did, and it's presumed the police can find evidence to charge you with it if you did it. Mechanics for avoiding notice are only in a few places in the game.

It would be possible to easily make masks not put crimes on your record, but that would be very unbalanced. Before masks can do anything, there needs to be a way for police to reconnect you to the mask. Something has to make covering your face less than an easy win button.

[Gabeux]

Hmm makes sense. I asked because I wanted to try a game with a no-police-record assassin-politician founder build.
Only for RP reasons and to try it out with a hierarchy I thought about.
Well, no problems, just wanted to know if there was any mechanics or it was actually a crime count

Also, I saved 2 captains one of my sleepers who got caught and was in prison, with my ninja.

The game is awesome in that regard, even with the ASCII graphics that tire me quickly, I always keep thinking that I will get a game over soon. But now I figured out some things about crimes and the justice system, so it's cool.
Seducing Judges ftw.

Thanks for the help And great work with the open source project!

[Marshall Burns]

A mechanic for your mask slipping off (with beneficial modifiers for disguise skill) while fighting/running/other strenuous stuff would probably do the trick for balancing masks. And of course they should attract a lot of suspicion (they might already? I'm not sure).

[Neonivek]

A mechanic for your mask slipping off (with beneficial modifiers for disguise skill) while fighting/running/other strenuous stuff would probably do the trick for balancing masks. And of course they should attract a lot of suspicion (they might already? I'm not sure).

Or simple the game could keep track of what crimes it caught you with and without the mask.

So if they ever link you to the mask (such as finding the mask, knocking it off, eye witness testimony, or any other methods) all of a sudden all your crimes count against you.

Its weakness of course is that Masks arn't useful unless you KNOW your commiting a crime in advance.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

A mechanic for your mask slipping off (with beneficial modifiers for disguise skill) while fighting/running/other strenuous stuff would probably do the trick for balancing masks. And of course they should attract a lot of suspicion (they might already? I'm not sure).

Or simple the game could keep track of what crimes it caught you with and without the mask.

So if they ever link you to the mask (such as finding the mask, knocking it off, eye witness testimony, or any other methods) all of a sudden all your crimes count against you.

Its weakness of course is that Masks arn't useful unless you KNOW your commiting a crime in advance.

But then how do they reconcile four guys all wearing heath ledger joker masks when they rob a bank? It seems a little unsatisfying if the game doesn't acknowledge that they're all wearing the same mask and which is which may be unclear. What if they all rob different banks on different days? Do we know they're not the same person?

The biggest worry I have is making it less of a choice than just a new dominant strategy. It's not interesting if all that happens as a result of handling face concealment is that using it becomes the "correct" way to play. Something like reduced juice gains for hiding behind a mask, maybe something else for people already maxed out.

[Zangi]

Between less juice, none to loss of juice.

Stealing stuff with masks?  You lose juice?

Less juice from on-site things on +LCS issues.
Less juice or no juice from on-site things that don't contribute to the liberal agenda. 

You can say though that putting down conservatives is part of the liberal agenda...
The whole thing backfires and you lose juice if you continue to gun people down and stuff... when you alienate the masses.

Penalty on seduction/persuasion/disguise.
LCS loses popularity and people do not respect the influence of the LCS when doing certain things while masked.  That ends up as a loss of juice... sleepers can also take a hit in juice from these conservative tactics employed by the LCS...

[Neonivek]

But then how do they reconcile four guys all wearing heath ledger joker masks when they rob a bank? It seems a little unsatisfying if the game doesn't acknowledge that they're all wearing the same mask and which is which may be unclear. What if they all rob different banks on different days? Do we know they're not the same person?

Body size.

Its actually quite obvious to police if two seperate people rob a place wearing the same suit.

The biggest worry I have is making it less of a choice than just a new dominant strategy.

No that is exactly what it would be. If you add masks for that purpose then masks HAVE to be used that way assuming you arn't going to give them magical abilities. I can't imagine it not being a new strategy you "have" to use except by avoiding situations you would use masks in anyway.

I'd also assume wearing a mask instantly raises the conservative alarm when you walk into a location with them on (And they are only useful if you walk in with them on).

So the advantage of not using a mask is the ability to use a disguise and sneak by people so you can hopefully go deeper without being shot up.

[Ramidel]

If the LCS start using Guy Fawkes masks as a trademark, then any LCS member can be, through the proper legal channels (Conservatives love loopholes) charged with the actions of any LCS member who also acted behind the mask. Essentially, it's either a RICO case (Racketeering, the charge you get against your founder if one of hir subordinates rats hir out) or a "gang-related crime" case (which, depending on how the law currently reads, is essentially a blank check).

Besides, masks should be a trademark and a way to increase the LCS' cool factor, not a way to actually hide your face.

[Leatra]

Also if people didn't know it was the LCS doing it, it wouldn't affect the issues wouldn't it? (I always figured you intentionally left evidence or at least a calling card)

Yeah, but if you leave evidence that only connects the crimes to the LCS and not your characters (like writing "LCS was here" to the wall or something even though it sounds kinda lame), it would be enough for people to know LCS did it. It would also make the LCS more mysterious

It could be needlessly complex too.

[olimcr]

A mechanic for your mask slipping off (with beneficial modifiers for disguise skill) while fighting/running/other strenuous stuff would probably do the trick for balancing masks. And of course they should attract a lot of suspicion (they might already? I'm not sure).

Or simple the game could keep track of what crimes it caught you with and without the mask.

So if they ever link you to the mask (such as finding the mask, knocking it off, eye witness testimony, or any other methods) all of a sudden all your crimes count against you.

Its weakness of course is that Masks arn't useful unless you KNOW your commiting a crime in advance.

But then how do they reconcile four guys all wearing heath ledger joker masks when they rob a bank? It seems a little unsatisfying if the game doesn't acknowledge that they're all wearing the same mask and which is which may be unclear. What if they all rob different banks on different days? Do we know they're not the same person?

The biggest worry I have is making it less of a choice than just a new dominant strategy. It's not interesting if all that happens as a result of handling face concealment is that using it becomes the "correct" way to play. Something like reduced juice gains for hiding behind a mask, maybe something else for people already maxed out.

maybe no matter where you go that mask is connected to those crimes and if a person of authority spots you they immediately reconnect the mask to the crime and try to attack or arrest you and maybe make mask more expensive so they're later game material

[Soadreqm]

If the LCS start using Guy Fawkes masks as a trademark, then any LCS member can be, through the proper legal channels (Conservatives love loopholes) charged with the actions of any LCS member who also acted behind the mask. Essentially, it's either a RICO case (Racketeering, the charge you get against your founder if one of hir subordinates rats hir out) or a "gang-related crime" case (which, depending on how the law currently reads, is essentially a blank check).

Besides, masks should be a trademark and a way to increase the LCS' cool factor, not a way to actually hide your face.

I have no idea how any of these laws actually work, but it'd be nice if (depending on current politics) merely belonging to the LCS could be considered a crime. Thus, if you have everyone wear Guy Fawkes masks all the time, merely being caught with a Guy Fawkes mask could be damning evidence. The possibility of police planting evidence could also be interesting. If the police catch someone who they're pretty sure is working with the LCS but can't prove, they might "find" a Guy Fawkes mask among his possessions.

Or, if you've only had a single liberal wear a mask, maybe other people could get charged with his crimes. I agree that masks should be mainly a coolness thing, rather than something you use to conceal your identity, so I'm not sure whether a system for shifting blame would actually be a good idea. Perhaps it could be linked to juice (implying that the conservatives know how much juice their captives have), so you'd only have high-ranking liberals taking the fall. Or maybe the cops would magically always blame the right guy? I don't know.

All crimes, masked or not, should probably generate the same amount of heat. So, if you find a situation where the cops have figured out where the liberals are hiding, (or maybe have actually caught the liberals), but can't prove that it was them, (or can't tell which liberal did what,) you could instead toss the player some corporate mercenaries, CCS vigilantes and CIA agents. "[Code Name] has been released due to insufficient evidence" followed by some assassination attempts. That'd make wearing masks all the time beneficial for squads that go around indiscriminately murdering everyone, never intend to be caught alive, and will look better shooting at the Men in Black rather than ordinary policemen; but not the activist-type people who publish stolen tax records, release toxic waste to the water supply and then get exonerated because half the justice system is secretly working for them.

That could work to make it an actual decision rather than always a good idea. If you don't wear a mask, you get caught. If you do, you get shot at.

[GlyphGryph]

Is there any way to make it add charges to your counts, but in a way that those charges are less likely to be proved in court?

Rather than worrying about tying all this stuff to mask tracking or anything like that, just abstract it out - if you were wearing a mask the entire time on site, it's harder to pin a crime on you. If you were wearing it for a portion of the time, its slightly harder. It still counts as a crime your wanted for (because damn it, it MUST be that guy!), but perhaps it draws a little less heat to you in particular, while not make it less likely for you to be convicted of that count once you get to court?

Of course, I don't think the current system can find you guilty on some charges and not on others...

If possible, though, it would be balanced by the instant suspicion from people seeing you, maybe even an instant warning from conservatives if they see you - and maybe (especially if the CCS is also active) from liberals as well!

So unless you are going on a front door murder-spree, you have to balance the benefits of getting off versus the price of fighting To and back FROM your goal, instead of skipping some of the potential mission violence.

[mike10019314]

a mask could severly reduce bluff chances and persuasion and increese hostility and suspition