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[Wayward Device]

Thanks once again for the detailed answers! That should be enough for now to get me started (but you know I've got more questions).

Firstly (and not really a question), I'm aware of just how valuable the "whale press" would be. I actually thought it in context of The Archivist (now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh (Lit: "That one of the clan Zahuel Lethnn Aueel, Sikhuue the-one-who-looks-back)) and their position within the city. Basically, since this is a young city primarily concerned with expanding and the export of raw servitor materials to larger, more established outposts I see two Deep Nobles holding the real power in the young metropolis, Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey (The Little Eye of the Cavern of Hanging Stones).

 Firstly, Wzeissaut Guoinrr Kroixxver Ooupi, Comptroller of Trade for Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey. Ooupi is an upstart, a young noble of a mere 2,783 years. Born in the ancient and vast city of Zuui Zxexrtgh Aiiaalle-Jjia (City of the Fiery Lovers of the Gloom, so named for its two Royals and the popular attribution of their close proximity). Having realized early on that that one which controls the raw servitor materials controls the City, Ooupi decided that mastering this art, that of the ebb and flow of commerce, was the only way to acquire power in any reasonable time frame. This did not endear Oopi to those who actually held the power and resulted in the need for a change of location to avoid the embarrassment of public self immolation. Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey seemed the perfect place to start afresh, to build a real power base. Not many of the great and the good in Noble society would be willing to leave the comforts of an old, established city to take up a position in such a young place. Perhaps in a few thousand years it may have pulled itself together enough to have some quint charm, worthy of a visit and some thinly veiled contempt. Ooupi is driven by two, sometimes conflicting urges. The first, to increase personal power in the form of favors owed and the ownership and trade of servitors and their constituent components. The second, a terrible fear (or rather, obsessive worry) that an Ancient will succeed in driving him to suicide before the entrenchment of power can be completed.

The second citizen of note in Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey is Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue Siia, ubiquitously known as The Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue of Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue, last living and oldest of the line. Siia is old. Incredibly old. Incredibly rich. Incredibly powerful. For Siia, Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey functions much like the spyhole in a human's front door: It keeps away unwanted visitors. The downside of both long life and effective immortality is that a huge number of acquaintances, friends, enemies, children, confidants, co-parents, academic rivals, academic allies, descendents, old comrades, hangers on, bitter enemies and nauseating sycophants tend to build up, all of whom seem to think that the solution to whatever problem they currently face is to ask the help of the oldest Noble they know. Residency in Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey ensures that Siia only has to deal with those willing to make the arduous journey, cutting down the time away from the primary obsession of his old age, the collection, caricaturization (according to a taxonomical system devised and understood by only Siia) and care of surface plants. These days, Siia only really cares for plants (which are always interesting and don't talk back, or ask stupid questions) and the design of the servitors that ensure their health. As the oldest and richest Noble in the city, Siia is technically in charge, the equivalent of a governor in a human empire. In reality he is content to allow Wzeissaut Guoinrr Kroixxver Ooupi the everyday running of things, so long as any demands for respect or raw servitor materials are meet instantly. Ooupi is content with this situation and will remain so until the day that forcing Siia to self-immolate in front of the whole populace becomes viable.               

Now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh is well acquainted with both Siia and Ooupi and enjoys their patronage. Sikhuue's friendship with Siia stems from the fact that as a historian Sikhuue actually knows what Siia is talking about when it comes time to reminisce about the adventures of his youth or the intrigues won and lost some thirty thousand years past. Sikhuue's relationship with Ooupi is founded on Ooupi's fear of death. More specifically, a fear of being forgotten. As a one with the ability to record events, Sikhuue has insinuated himself into Ooupi's confidence, rebuffing all requests for a recording of life history by claiming that as a scholar he lacks the raw materials materials to adequately create such a history. To further complicate things, while not an aberration in itself the desire for some sort of memorial to you life because you feared death of all reasons could easily used by Ooupi's (numerous and growing number of) enemies to insinuate his weakness. Because of all this Ooupi has showered Sikhuue with gifts, hoping that for a change of heart.

Few. That got a bit more out of hand than I thought it would. As a final note on the "whale press" I would add that it represents both the results of the above interactions and the culmination of Sikhuue's life's work. All as a framing device for a bit of exposition in the upcoming story.

Finally, actual questions: We know that there are humans in the Deep Noble's world as well as normal animals that we would recognize. Are there other sentient races? Classic fantasy races +, entirely created races or none of the above? Are there "monsters" (dragon, troll, ogre, etc)? Are any cavern dwelling animals common?

The Royals: A Noble city can only really be built around a Royal, but what determines where these Royals are placed in the world? Do the nobles have some method for breeding and moving the royals or is it out of their hands? For such a large sessile creature as the Royals I can see a young motile stage where they wander about eating everything in sight until settling down in some suitably empty cavern. Basically, do Nobles scout around for a new site for a city and then somehow move a Royal or would they have to stumble upon a place where a young Royal had decided to go sessile?

The two above questions are the most pressing, but as a final one: What do the Noble do for fun? How do they relax and enjoy themselves? What entertainments divert them? Feasts and eating (I imagine Nobles, thanks to their incredibly resilient immune systems could eat pretty much anything they liked, which coupled with a long lifespan and inquisitive mindset should ressult in some very interseting cuisine)? Is there a ubiquitous narcotic (as alcohol is with humans)? Do they enjoy plays, music, bloodsports, competitions and the like? Would there be specific public venues for such activities or would they take place in private?   

Anyway, thanks again for the answers, hope this giant wall of text isn't too.....giant-wall-y

[Armok]

What's the the attitude towards extremely intelligent (or at least exceptional in some mental attribute) servitors? Mathematicans using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer s, artificial idiot savants with many hands and eyes and swollen brains for multitasking.  Artists using as their canvass a mass of visual cortex made to grow cancerously into a large sheet and covered directly on octopus skin, trained to react in complex ways to the touch of the brush as, as well as preforming functions such as memorizing and recalling pieces. Series of humans with ever-increasing and more general inelegance, playing games against one another in a fiercely competitive display of their creators craft.

[nighzmarquls]

Thanks once again for the detailed answers! That should be enough for now to get me started (but you know I've got more questions).

Firstly (and not really a question), I'm aware of just how valuable the "whale press" would be.

Very good

I actually thought it in context of The Archivist (now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh (Lit: "That one of the clan Zahuel Lethnn Aueel, Sikhuue the-one-who-looks-back)) and their position within the city. Basically, since this is a young city primarily concerned with expanding and the export of raw servitor materials to larger, more established outposts I see two Deep Nobles holding the real power in the young metropolis, Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey (The Little Eye of the Cavern of Hanging Stones).

I will be the first to admit that I don't know a good way to convey this in linear text, but something I was trying to convey in the Deep Noble Language section is that they make use of a lot of simultaneous vocalizations. Some of these Names sound a bit long (and also can be cumbersome to read) if you say them in a linear manner but probably would not if they overlapped.

You could probably reduce some of the clunkiness in reading this by taking some of the words and blending them together by having the first and last syllable of each component merged so that one takes dominance, or picking one of the more distinct single words and using that as short hand for referring to a character or place (as you do later in this post). I'd hate to have the Deep Noble's naming conventions get in the way of telling a good story.

Firstly, Wzeissaut Guoinrr Kroixxver Ooupi... *snip*

That one seems like an interesting character with motivations that may very readily if not endear them to an audience at least give people some view points onto the Noble Civilization  they are familiar with. Which when combined with the paranoia of this human quality being something that could 'out' them in Deep Noble society driving home where the culture is different and bringing it into sharp contrast.

The second citizen of note in Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey is Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue Siia, ubiquitously known as The Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue of Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue, last living and oldest of the line. *snip*

The sheer age suggested here is something I'm leery of because it needs to be handled with care.

That is an age which means Siia predates the adoption of Deep Nobles Using Writing in most settings because it predates most human civilization. So if your going to throw around ages like that you need to be prepared to acknowledge what your saying with that sheer breadth of time, especially if they are going to be engaging with other characters.

That is deep enough history that if this character was on earth Siia would personally have seen the rising of all human civilization, would have intuitive knowledge of climactic shift and probably is aware of geological change/tectonic motion measured in miles based on their own memories.

Also they must be extremely risk averse and lucky besides, The Estimations of how long a human being could manage to survive if they never got sick or aged past 30 before the odds stacked against them for violent death/accident is only 3000 years. I'd put a guess that Deep Noble Robustness might double or triple that average life expectancy but that still means Siia is three times older then is probable.

Just would like you to have both eyes open if you want to descend that particular cliff
         

Now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh is well acquainted with both Siia and Ooupi and enjoys their patronage...

Definitely getting a lot of the stratification of Deep Noble Society across here, and in a personable way I like it... also explains why the archivist is getting something comparable to a gold plated piano made of dodo-ivory and diamonds that has to burn a gallon of oil for every three chords played.

Few. That got a bit more out of hand than I thought it would. As a final note on the "whale press" I would add that it represents both the results of the above interactions and the culmination of Sikhuue's life's work. All as a framing device for a bit of exposition in the upcoming story.

Such a lovely artifact, would be a shame if something 'happened' to it

Finally, actual questions: We know that there are humans in the Deep Noble's world as well as normal animals that we would recognize. Are there other sentient races? Classic fantasy races +, entirely created races or none of the above? Are there "monsters" (dragon, troll, ogre, etc)? Are any cavern dwelling animals common?

Deep Nobles are portable, I am going to leave it open as far as 'canon' what their neighbors actually are, however wherever they end up their civilization makes no exceptions for the view of none-royal / none-Deep Noble life. Individuals can have their own personal perspectives on outsiders but as a majority/common interactions they make no exceptions to their attitude that ALL life no matter its form or origin is inferior to them and their royals.

The Royals: A Noble city can only really be built around a Royal, but what determines where these Royals are placed in the world? Do the nobles have some method for breeding and moving the royals or is it out of their hands? For such a large sessile creature as the Royals I can see a young motile stage where they wander about eating everything in sight until settling down in some suitably empty cavern. Basically, do Nobles scout around for a new site for a city and then somehow move a Royal or would they have to stumble upon a place where a young Royal had decided to go sessile?

I don't have the energy to encapsulate these tidbits in the main page tonight so I hope this suffices to answer your questions for now:

Royals are perfectly CAPABLE of moving, They choose not to for most of any given Noble's living memory and for reasons that they cannot adequately explain (HANDY PLOT DEVICES OF MYSTERY). These migrations though are actually something that terrifies any Deep Nobles that have seen it before and would strike terror into the hearts of surface folk if they ever witnessed it.

Royals do not care about obstacles of any kind when they are on the move, they spew acid that melts impediments and aggravating life forms (including Deep Nobles), their bodies rise to remarkable temperatures and melt through stone like it was butter... or they simply force their way into a wall and push/shove the rock out of their way causing great upheavals above and below..

In many ways Royals embody all the fickleness of natural disasters and chaos in the realm of Deep Nobles but as living breathing things that can be worshiped, objectively studied and at least theoretically placated.

Young Royals do occur, but the exact reasoning for, method of or requirements to induce are unknown to deep nobles, they simply happen occasionally with very little warning. Royals as often will split via mitosis as go on excursions to meet one another and produce 'little' whelps. Large Royals will some times fission into dozens of smaller ones and more or less destroy a settlement by leaving it with no source of Royal Blood.

The birth of a royal is an event that is a disaster for the resident Deep Noble population, because it will generally migrate through their city killing and destroying everything that impedes it and without proper warning there is little chance the unfortunates in its way will survive.

But it is also a new opportunity for the survivors as a newly born Royal will set out through the earth to find somewhere with the requisite food, water and raw materials to feed on, which pioneering young Nobles and families will often seek out to establish cities around.

So in closing for Royals its a bit like living next to a combination between Lavos and Godzilla that you can use for power 99.998% of the time but occasionally goes for a walk or gives birth to screaming burrowing babies of doom.

The two above questions are the most pressing, but as a final one: What do the Noble do for fun? *snip*

I imagine their actually very enthusiastic over many of the things we are and with the moral absolution that no living thing but another Deep Noble has immutable rights or any purpose BUT to serve them the degrees of their depravities can be far more extreme then I expect most human beings could be comfortable contemplating.

Also Armok has some excellent ideas as well that I think fit very well

What's the the attitude towards extremely intelligent (or at least exceptional in some mental attribute) servitors? Mathematicans using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer s, artificial idiot savants with many hands and eyes and swollen brains for multitasking.  Artists using as their canvass a mass of visual cortex made to grow cancerously into a large sheet and covered directly on octopus skin, trained to react in complex ways to the touch of the brush as, as well as preforming functions such as memorizing and recalling pieces. Series of humans with ever-increasing and more general inelegance, playing games against one another in a fiercely competitive display of their creators craft.

Damn You Armok! I'm going to have to do some bits on arts and crafts for Deep Nobles now All of that stuff is GOLDEN.

I suspect however that they actually have a bit of difficulty in thinking up the more advanced mathematics themselves due to how much rigor and uniformity that would require among individuals, more often then not if they have observed humans performing complex calculations they would  collect those, otherwise they probably string together brains/humans in great chains of simple number crunch/brute force counting batteries rather then anything as complex as calculus or linear algebra.

perhaps once every few thousand years they might develop a mathematically inclined Deep Noble that truly realizes the potential of human computers and create custom servitors to fullfill great sweeping dreams of engineering. Unfortunately all the notes of such a star would likely be rendered incomprehensible jargon by the time such was achieved.

[Armok]

Yea, and after 200 000 years you have a decently sized community of 200 such individuals, that while each having their own system all have had time to get to know all the others and understand most of their systems. Or at least create translator servitors.

Also, one could imagine "mathematican" nobles that are not at all like human mathematicans, but rather specialists at herding teams of servitors towards areas of mathematics with practical applications that can benefit nobles.

For example, this two mind system: A talented, generally intelligent mathematical brain feed it's only sensory input fabricated by a "GM" servitor, facilities extended to visualize the world photorealisticaly in realtime and feeding a fake reality containing complex motivating... I forgot where I were going.

Anyway, it seems deep nobles don't feel pain the same way vertebrates do and are very good at multitasking, and have a hard time, this strongly indicates they have ganglionic intelligence, is this correct?
One interesting implication is that it might be common practice to cut out sub-personalities the majority of you don't approve of, and a new brain would grow back, hopefully with a personality more harmonious with the rest of them. This also means young nobles, or those who don't practice this, would be significantly more inconsistent/schizophrenic than old ones that have stabelized.

[nighzmarquls]

Yea, and after 200 000 years you have a decently sized community of 200 such individuals, that while each having their own system all have had time to get to know all the others and understand most of their systems. Or at least create translator servitors.

Geography and the occasional accident/suicide/loss of interest is probably the biggest reason that those 200 individuals don't meet reliably. It might be conceivable that they do come across each other in handfuls over the eons and that degrees of their ideas transfer. Also at least the first 50 thousand years of that time scale will be individuals with a lot less raw material for thinking machine the later 150 unless your positing them in a much older world then we have for human history.

Also, one could imagine "mathematican" nobles that are not at all like human mathematicans, but rather specialists at herding teams of servitors towards areas of mathematics with practical applications that can benefit nobles.

Much more common and likely to occur more often in 'modern' Deep Noble Societies thanks to the abundance of humans/analogues of humans.

Anyway, it seems deep nobles don't feel pain the same way vertebrates do and are very good at multitasking, and have a hard time, this strongly indicates they have ganglionic intelligence, is this correct?
One interesting implication is that it might be common practice to cut out sub-personalities the majority of you don't approve of, and a new brain would grow back, hopefully with a personality more harmonious with the rest of them. This also means young nobles, or those who don't practice this, would be significantly more inconsistent/schizophrenic than old ones that have stabelized.

You are correct on the ganglionic nature of their intelligence and what you describe already occurs in humans in the process of neural pruning, A comparable process is performed by Deep Noble incubators on an instinctual level to developing Deep Nobles before they are born. This 'self reinforcing' order by deep noble to deep noble is why cast offs do not display the same degree of intelligence or sanity, and is likely contributing to how static their culture is.

[Armok]

You can probably get decently superhuman intelligence from a any ape by simply increasing the brain size, although it'll lack in culture and memories. The reason to use humans for intelligence requiring servitors is: they live longer and the like, as already mentioned, and you save a little bit of time on training since some already know the basics of speech and mathematics. Take 100 chimps, use a stain of blood on their brain that will make them 10 times larger, and leave them alone for 20 years, and you'll get pretty much the same result as if you had used kidnapped-at-birth human children, which is close enough for most purposes.

I were thinking more of the dramatic cases where those natural processes aren't enough, and adult nobles have to do a dramatic surgical procedure on themselves which alters their personality overnight. (If you have read A Fire Upon The Deep you probably know the kind of thing I'm thing I'm thinking of from the result of Tines changing pack members. )

[tommy521]

Allow me to firstly state: what the actual f**k
Secondly, I absolutely love these, they're so in depth and intricate it just gets my imagination whirring. Keep up the good work I guess?

[nighzmarquls]

You can probably get decently superhuman intelligence from a any ape by simply increasing the brain size, although it'll lack in culture and memories. The reason to use humans for intelligence requiring servitors is: they live longer and the like, as already mentioned, and you save a little bit of time on training since some already know the basics of speech and mathematics. Take 100 chimps, use a stain of blood on their brain that will make them 10 times larger, and leave them alone for 20 years, and you'll get pretty much the same result as if you had used kidnapped-at-birth human children, which is close enough for most purposes.

Indeed the processing power available would be comparable, but plains-apes and monkeys are not particularly widespread or numerous before their civilization takes root. The locations where they were common would be the only places that the obvious inspiration and raw materials would be available. And monkeys and apes do not necessarily live in the concentrations  needed for easy harvest.

I suppose you could use these facts to make an argument that modern humans and their civilization were the result of entrepreneurial Deep Noble breeding programs, but that would be an interpretation external to their core canon.

I were thinking more of the dramatic cases where those natural processes aren't enough, and adult nobles have to do a dramatic surgical procedure on themselves which alters their personality overnight. (If you have read A Fire Upon The Deep you probably know the kind of thing I'm thing I'm thinking of from the result of Tines changing pack members. )

Ah Vernor Vinge is quite a wonderful explorer of mind, Yes that is a possibility in deep nobles. Although the reinforcing of the other nodes onto the new tissue is going to make drastic mental surgery tricky. There is likely a very deep and personal art to it and it also is fret with the peril that you will unhinge yourself into a spiral of suffering that will demand that others put you out of your misery for your own pitiable sake.

[nighzmarquls]

Allow me to firstly state: what the actual f**k

I am going to take that you find the Deep Nobles Alien and your ability to immediately apprehend them is strained?

If so MUAHAHA success!

Secondly, I absolutely love these, they're so in depth and intricate it just gets my imagination whirring. Keep up the good work I guess?

HAHA! yes! I have inspired imagination!

The Success Has been Doubled!

[nighzmarquls]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Deep Nobles come in a vast variety of colors and personalities and their choice in fashion is reflected by this.

This has been added to the Deep Noble Fashion Section, their personalities actually convert relatively easily to Deep Nobles. Although Applejack and Fluttershy get a dash warped in the transition.

Fluttershy's desire to take care of the adorable animals extends to one where she will seek to augment their life spans with the use of Deep Noble Augments.

Applejack naturally brings her work ethic and general tenacity to the care and utilization of her family's flesh fields.

Now that I have associated these two entirely incongruous concepts in your brain I shall get to work on something else related to Deep Nobles.

[tommy521]

This has been added to the Deep Noble Fashion Section, their personalities actually convert relatively easily to Deep Nobles.
ETC ETC

Uhm, are they dancing on a flesh field or something? It's so morbid it's wonderful. I'm not usually one for ponies but... you somehow make them much more interesting. I just can't put my finger on it...

[Armok]

OuO Best crossover! This really needs to be explored more.

love the idea of humans being, if not directly breed, at least somehow caused by noble influence. Makes the timing of several simultaneous intelligent species seem much less improbable.

Hmm, why do flesh fields have eyes? Are those huge eyes actually good and usable for servitors?

[nighzmarquls]

OuO Best crossover! This really needs to be explored more.

love the idea of humans being, if not directly breed, at least somehow caused by noble influence. Makes the timing of several simultaneous intelligent species seem much less improbable.

Hmm, why do flesh fields have eyes? Are those huge eyes actually good and usable for servitors?

Originally? it was so I could convey their pain and suffering to the viewer. Eyes have more emotive power then any other organ I could have used so it really conveys that this is a living thing that is in PAIN.

As far as reasons why Deep Nobles might want to grow them? I suspect it involves food, medicine (for servitors of course) or perhaps the maintenance of the flesh fields themselves.

Especially if they are using them to grow yards of neural fibers for use in other servitors those neurons need to be exercised with variable information, In that case the Deep Nobles are probably showing pictures to Flesh Fields or exposing them to variable lighting so that their minds don't go all mushy from the monotony of constant harvesting.

Also lets not forget despite their expertise on an individual level they are not very systematic on the whole about things, flesh fields are like any servitor and they are created by intuited recipes not necessarily rational theory.

[nighzmarquls]

Uhm, are they dancing on a flesh field or something? It's so morbid it's wonderful. I'm not usually one for ponies but... you somehow make them much more interesting. I just can't put my finger on it...

Yes they are, Flesh Fields pretty much fill the niche of managed biome for Deep Nobles it is as close to nature as they feel comfortable most of the time.

Also really for me despite the fact the show uses ponies I think that it gets by more on the merit of the characters and their interactions and the over all positive feel good aspects of the show.

It also has quite a depth of world building and thought going into it if you really look, for example there is an undertone of deep paranoia about nature being able to get along without direct intervention in that world.

Pegasi take direct action over all weather, Winter must be 'wrapped up' on a set schedule the sun and the moon must be dictated to move by the will of a ruler.

The most frightening place for the residents is the 'Ever-free' forest, there is some thinking under the surface going on there if you look for it.

Here is hoping this is something more of a nature of our times that worlds (even saccharine cutesy ones) will have hidden depths to explore if you care to look.

[Armok]

Hmm, I have a very hard time imagining deep nobles staying in power if brains can be gown on the scale of flesh fields. Even lacking direct means of output there is just no way such an intelligence wouldn't cause a technological singularity pretty much instantly. It'd just figure out how to take over their brains through hypnotic eye motions or the waste heat generated by it's though processes or something.