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[melkorp]

I want to make a free open source roguelike city simulation rpg in a steampunk high fantasy horror noir vein, and have the process be public via this forum.  Anyone who wants to contribute anything (ideas, design, experience, art, code) except money is extremely welcome, but if people just want to watch, that's cool too, I'll hack it together and keep posting.  If people want to take charge and do their own thing, I'll watch.  I feel comfortable enough with the DF community to forge ahead either way.  There's already been some feedback in the form of great ideas & suggestions so it's already a community project to me.

[Zancor Mezoran]

a steampunk-high fantasy-horror-noir roguelike-city-simulation-rpg

I think more should be defined about these categories themselves, starting with how vague/fully-encompassing or how detailed/specific they should be.  I don't know much about roguelikes in general (in fact, I don't know what a roguelike is at all - therefore, SCIENCE), but the other stuff I've got in, out and around the wazoo. An existing game that I'd recommend as at least an idea base would be Planescape: Torment.

One suggestion could be that the different "city boroughs" each have a central theme among these genres; this could be represented in the facilities, architecture, prevalent technology, culture, etc., even down as far as having slang/shorthand specific to one borough/theme, or specifics like "it's illegal to have a semi-automatic illusionary steam arbalest in Borough C unless you're an Orc".  If you have boroughs with themes that are foreign enough amongst each other, this could lead to interesting concepts such as 7-way gang crusades, a borough that's sort of like a hub between all the others, or a floundering city-wide government that's trying to cope with and unite all the different groups.

Something else that occurred to me is that if you're combining steampunk and high fantasy, you have opened the gates to the infinite realms of magical technology.  Of course, this could manifest itself in many ways, largely depending on how "magic" might work; heck, even if you don't want "magic" in the traditional sense, you could still have technology based upon the inherent special abilities of specific fantasy races, such as the alien weaponry in the movie District 9.

Finally, I also thought of some alternative CIAISBY@CS's that aren't quite as cliche:
-The "island city" is also a prison facility of sorts, where people from all walks of life get sent if the government doesn't approve of their actions; they can't leave the island or communicate with people on the outside (other than through the upper echelon government officials, influential business tycoons, powerful mob bosses, etc.), but they're free to live in the city inside the prison.  The government could also use this as a method to earn money, by charging higher taxes or putting tariffs on goods traded within the city, on account that the people "are supposed to be in prison, so they're getting more than they deserve already".
-The "island city" is the last known haven of civilization on a irreversibly devastated planet; for ____ reason, or due to ____ apocalypse, to leave the city is to die...or worse.  Maybe some people have found a way to interact with the outside world, but they keep their secrets heavily guarded and use them for profit, or in the process of their discoveries became enlightened/mentally scarred/etc. and there's no way in hell you'll get it out of their thick skulls...this could be used to inspire some of the "horror" aspects of the game.

[Max White]

in fact, I don't know what a roguelike is at all

How... Did you get here? This forum?

[melkorp]

Planescape: Torment was just about the best rpg I ever played.  It took You Wake Up With Amnesia and made it really interesting.  Sigil was a really fun city to be stuck in.

One suggestion could be that the different "city boroughs" each have a central theme among these genres; this could be represented in the facilities, architecture, prevalent technology, culture, etc., even down as far as having slang/shorthand specific to one borough/theme, or specifics like "it's illegal to have a semi-automatic illusionary steam arbalest in Borough C unless you're an Orc".  If you have boroughs with themes that are foreign enough amongst each other, this could lead to interesting concepts such as 7-way gang crusades, a borough that's sort of like a hub between all the others, or a floundering city-wide government that's trying to cope with and unite all the different groups.

Yes, please!  I was thinking of having 7 boroughs:  6 of them procedurally aligned with a different race/class/couple of industries and a seventh aligned with an ineffectual central government.  So in one city the orcs live in a slum and control gambling, sports, and education, and in another city the orcs live in mansions and control law, fine arts, and banking, while the humanoid replicants live in slums and control journalism, construction, and raw industry.

Something else that occurred to me is that if you're combining steampunk and high fantasy, you have opened the gates to the infinite realms of magical technology.  Of course, this could manifest itself in many ways, largely depending on how "magic" might work

 
All I know is there will be no such thing as "Mana", or the collection of "Mana Points", measured by a blue/green bar/wineglass shape. 
To people who don't understand how either works, technology is magic.  I should know, I'm one of them.
Right: you look up "roguelike", I'll look up "arbalest".

[melkorp]

FROM MY NOTES

*A randomly generated, persistent city, built to certain specifications, fulfilling certain requirements.  A map random enough to maintain a spirit of exploration but consistent enough to write and plan for.  A city under siege that the player can't leave. 

*Seven families from seven races/cultures fighting for control and influence you can ally yourself with or earn a murderous enmity from.  Each family is feuding with or allying with all the others, a balance of power that constantly shifts.

*Twenty interlocked institutions the player can exploit, conform to, rise to the top of, subvert, destroy, reform, or just generally hone his individuality against:
 
Crime
Journalism
Sport
Law
Law Enforcement
Entertainment
Hospitality
Science
Fine Art
Manufacture
Retail
Banking
Government
Construction
Real Estate
Education
Religion
Primary Industry
Agriculture
Medicine
Military

*Each institution has it's key figures, all struggling to reform the institution, or maintain the status quo, or bring the institution down from within, or just get away with doing as little work as possible.

*Either Government or (more likely) the Military is essentially closed to the player for the purposes of plotting (the player can't join or work for them), so there is always a strong deus ex machina group as needed for the scripted events.     

*Randomly generated identities whose particular histories are compelling reasons for the player be a stranger/neophyte/outsider in the city:

the HOBO
     Hopped off a train, hungry and penniless.
the THIRD_MAN
     Old Friend offers desperate player a job.  Old Friend is mysteriously killed the day player arrives.
     Old Friend was under investigation for crimes against humanity.
the GREAT_DETECTIVE
     To assist local law enforcement in pursuit of player's Nemesis, thought to be at large in the city.
     The Great Detective is, of course, his own (amnesiac) Nemesis, who has long ago murdered the Great Detective and assumed his identity.
the SUPERHERO
     Player had some ... trouble ... with the last town he was sworn to protect.
     City doesn't particularly want a superhero.
the ATHELETE
     Traded to local team.
     Competing in Tournament.
the DRUG_MULE
     Transaction spectacularly unsuccessful.
the ARTIST
     Book signing/Band on tour/Gallery Show
the FARMER
     Selling produce at market. 
     Player's weird religion proscribes much of the urban experience.
the BRANCH_MANAGER
     The company rolls up, bankrupt, before player arrives.
     Company has also framed player for fraud, espionage.
the DEAN_CORSO
     Making illegal purchase of rare, antique MacGuffin for powerful, insane client.
     As soon as player aquires/loses artifact, client is hunting him.
the AMNESIAC_AT_THE_BLOODY_CRIME_SCENE
     Uh oh! 
the MACGUFFIN_THIEF
     The locals hired the player: the player's the best.
     The locals don't particularly want to pay the player.
     There's a shady broker in town that might.
the REVENGER
     Hello.  My name is Inigo Montoya.
the CELEBRITY CHILD
     Nothing special about player.  Player's mom was a famous nutjob, though.
     Player's mom has died.  Player is in town for the funeral.
the IDIOT
     This isn't the train to Marlton?
the STUDENT
     Hogwarts is going to be great!
the ADULTERER
     The affair with your rich, powerful, weird lover begins to sour.  Spectacularly.
the CONSULTANT
     Invited to lecture on an obscure topic of expertise.
     No one attends.  The presenting organization is non existent.
     Someone knows the player is actually a spy and has trapped him in the now quarintined city. 
the ASSASSIN
     The locals hired the player: the player's the best.
     The locals don't want to pay the player.

*Features like a personal history, innate advantages/skills and problems/handicaps (both cultural and psychological). 
 For example, a HOBO would innately be able to:
     read and write hobo signs and prison tattoos
     scrounge for food
     pickpocket
     hide well. 
 She might also have:
     a crippling fear of fire or dogs
     a drug addiction
     an unstoppable urge to kill redheaded men
     an appalling deformity         

*The setting is a city on the eve of disaster.  The first stage of the game begins with a minor terrorist attack and ends with a major one.  No matter what the player chooses, their choices are being shaped and guided by the game towards averting an appalling catastrophe.  So the gameplay is open ended, but a clock is ticking, and after a certain amount of time, the Catastrophe occurs.  The player should be able to enjoy dozens of hours of gameplay before ever beginning to suspect that there is no way to avert the Catastrophe, which there isn't: there are only variously ironic ways of inadvertantly causing it.   

*The game keeps track of where the character is and what she's doing.  If the player dies, the next character could concievably pass the first character on the street, or notice them across a room.  The first character's actions, of course, would be unchangeable, culminating in their inevitable death, which the second character is unable to prevent, only witness.

[Siquo]

in fact, I don't know what a roguelike is at all

How... Did you get here? This forum?

Technically, DF-fortressmode isn't a roguelike either... And the definition is quite vague.

[melkorp]

MAP GENERATING

Thinking of the game city as essentially flat, like Manhattan or Venice, with the buildings themselves providing the height.  Rooftop chases.  Sky pirate platform camps.  Tethered zeppelins.     

To form the island, I imagine a heightmap with a range of 20, with 10 being "sea level". 
The blocky compound shape of the island is placed, oriented towards the center, a given distance of let's-call-them-tiles from the map edge.
The blocky compound shape is eroded on it's edges til it looks island-y enough.
The height of the island is now rudely flattened/paved at "sea level". 
The water doesn't need to be deeper than 1 level if you can't swim or sail on it
The land should be essentially flat for optimal urbanity?  No hills? 
So maybe land higher than sea level is cut off and thrown away, leaving 10 levels of "sky".
A "lake" of a certain size range is always/optionally placed towards the center of the island.
A couple of "canals" or "rivers" are run across the island to necessitate a lot of bridge crossing.  Lots of bridges are cool.  I imagine in a dangerous city crossing a bridge should be somewhat stressful, especially at night.

Maybe now is a good time to place exceptional structures before laying down a grid of streets.
Exceptional structures are large-ish areas that maybe will appear to have existed before the city
Or else serve to bust up the relative monotony of a grid of streets
There should be a certain number of mandatory ones, like: Airfield, Military Fort, Excellent Park, University Campus
And a certain number of random ones like: Strange Field of Giant Stone Heads, Indestructible Obsidian Tower, Abandoned Amusement Park

A grid of streets that respects the lake and exceptional structures is laid
The streets should wrap tight around the edges of Forts and Excellent Parks and the like
A certain number of streets should dead end at canals or turn into bridges
Most of the waterfront should have a street that wraps around the island and has docks that extend from it
But there should still be room for a filthy beach or two, for finding bodies and getting attacked.

This brings it to buildings and boroughs and which comes first. 
Probably it's time to decide if a borough is an arbitrary section of the city or if it has intrinsic structures i.e. are hospitals only in poor neighborhoods?  Is the University always in the Government sector?

Fun stuff.

[Virex]

Hmm, this concept is partially making me think of the Ravnica block from Magic the Gathering: See here for a short synopsis. Maybe it can serve as inspiration?


Edit: How about separating the districts with canals? That would give an idea of each district being it's own little world, separated from the rest of the city by guarded bridges. Also, the Dark Reflections trilogy by Kai Meyer and His Dark materials by Philip Pullman could serve as inspiration, as they're set in roughly the same kind of world.

[Siquo]

Don't forget squares. Squares are very important as nexuses (sp?) for streetplans. Perhaps study some old city streetplans to see how these should grow organically.

[melkorp]

Reminds me of Sigil from Planescape.  I like the Guild/House thing, it's Dune-y. 
"Mana": do not want.
Guilds and Houses line up with the seven Families/seven fantasy races/seven boroughs ideas

Combining the idea of high fantasy races and steampunk requires a little bit of work because there aren't necessarily generic received ideas about what they are.  In fantasy, there are always orcs, always elves, dwarves, etc.  Things like the Eldar in Warhammer 40k seem kind of lazy to me from one angle (Elves in Space!), but there's inherent power in things like that.  I really wonder what a procedural generated set of races/cultures could look like.  Maybe if there were enough generic tropes in play and they got randomized enough it could strike the right balance between familiar and new. 

TOLKIENY HIGH FANTASY TROPES, DF STYLE
Graceful, immortal, nature loving Elves
Subterranean, metalworking, hard-drinking Dwarves
Evil, aggressive, chaotic Orcs
Courageous, greedy, powermongering Humans
Lowly, skulking, kleptomaniacal Kobolds
Powerful, wise, possibly insane Wizards
Dungeons filled with treasure, traps
Technology cutoff around 1400 or so

STEAMPUNK
Big Sentient Coal-powered Robots
Victorian culture
Technology cutoff around 1880 or so
Elegant humanoid aliens
Zeppelins

Looks like I don't know anything about steampunk.  Posh orcs with monocles and top hats dining on a zeppelin is pretty funny, but not necessarily something new.

Siquo: you mean squares as in "town square", yeah?  Like the town square is built first and roads radiate from it.  Cities I'm looking at right now are Venice, Manhattan, and Malta for their island-ness; and Salt Lake City and Philadelphia for their grid-ness.

[Virex]

Well, the easiest way is to take the Tolkien tropes and poor them into guilds and districts:
 
Graceful, immortal, nature loving Elves
-> Garden district, a district with hanging gardens, Babylon style. Provides most of the food for the city. Besides food, the Elves also cultivate drugs and magic herbs here. The Elves themselves are obsessed with beauty, youth and keeping their district pure and clean of foreigners (basically any non-elf). Unlike in other worlds, the Elves are immortal but they do age, so they preform all kinds of rituals to combat their aging.

Subterranean, metalworking, hard-drinking Dwarves
-> Industrial district. Here the boilerworks of the city are found, as well as the smithies, weavers and breweries. The dwarves themselves are rough folks, fond of industry and beer. Ever so often a part of their district is trashed because a pub fight spiraled out of control, but the dwarves don't seem to mind. They're constantly at odds with the authorities for being rowdy law-breakers and with the elves for causing pollution. Dwarven Miners and Spelunkers maintain the sewer system and the undercity mines from their industrial district. Ever so often they run into something that should've remained sealed. As a result, and because of constant skirmishes between them and the elves, this district is reminiscent of a fortress. The dwarves police themselves and have no need for stinkin' human authorities.

Evil, aggressive, chaotic Orcs
-> The outer slums. Here you can find casinos, brothels and shady pubs, as well as the occasional black market at midnight. This district is run by ruthless men and fallen elves who use Orcs as their bodyguards and henchmen. Also expect to find cultists and temples to the dark powers here. If you need something from outside the city or you want to get someone killed, this is the place to look. The streets themselves are dominated by gangs of renegade Orcs, human thugs and Dwarves looking for a fight. Some elves come here for special rejuvation potions and rituals, because the contents and techniques employed are of highly illegal nature. Usually shunned by the authorities for being too dangerous, except for once every year when they have to clean up the mess left behind by a demon summoning ritual that got out of hand.

Courageous, greedy, powermongering Humans
-> The authorities themselves, as well as the official religious system. Corrupt to the bone, they'll gladly forget about your transgressions for the right price. Due to their fear of death and distrust of their servants, they're proficient necromancers. It's said that the official police force are just a front end and the real police force can be found in the mortuaries. There are a lot of departments: The department of industry, waterworks, agriculture et cetera, who're constantly at odds with each other and with themselves. Assassinations and even wars over things as petty as a new canal aren't unheard off.

Lowly, skulking, kleptomaniacal Kobolds
-> Street Urchins. Found everywhere, but especially in the merchant's district.

Powerful, wise, possibly insane Wizards
->University District. The wizards and artificers living here have a knack of breaking the laws, both of the city and of nature. Their district is larger than someone walking around it would expect, for example and it's utterly impossible to read the maps of this district. Vile fumes, towers of fire, ball lightning and blizzards can peacefully coexist in this district. If you need a potion, a golem or a new boiler you're likely to find one here.


Benevolent religious group that only seeks to bring peace
-> Medical District, lead by a religious order. Officially excommunicated by the religious authorities, they have taken up residence in the old temple district. They try to help where possible with outbreaks of diseases and the aftermaths of riots, as well as exorcising demons and undead whenever possible without attracting the ire of the authorities or cultists. Their cementary is an ever-growing liability and the knowledge about demons and the undead stored in their libraries make them a target for both the authorities, cultists and the mage guild. Much of their knowledge is also inherently dangerous and members of the Order always run a risk of becoming possessed.

[Siquo]

As a European, the American grid-cities look enormously fake and unnatural to me. Of course, the newer, planned cities and boroughs over here sometimes have grids as well, but these are mostly avoided.

Yes, I mean "townsquares", which are hardly ever square. Triangles, stars, half-circles, L-shapes. Cities I lived in: Den Bosch has a roughly triangular form, Amsterdam is a set of concentric half-circles. Paris and London have actually had a big make-over with city planning somewhere in their history.

For Steampunk I'd recommend reading Girl Genius, and/or watching "Cite des enfants perdus" (City of the lost children). I'm not a steampunk expert but I like them.

[melkorp]

Virex: I really like this. 
The benevolent religious group could be big coal powered robots who worship a Great Mechanic. 
Having 7 races with 3 non-randomized industries each would make each game session consistent enough to write events for.
If I combine your aesthetic with the 21 Industries from my notes it could look like:

ELVES: Agriculture/Medicine/Entertainment
DWARVES: Primary Industry/Manufacture/Construction
ORCS: Crime/Sport/Law Enforcement
HUMANS: Government/Real Estate/Military
KOBOLDS: Journalism/Law/Retail
WIZARDS: Science/Fine Art/Banking
ROBOTS: Education/Religion/Hospitality

I love the idea of an orc chief of police and orc football teams, and kobold paparazzi and lawyers seems very natural.  Wizard scientists seem right and proper.  Maybe my industries need work: can't remember why I divided Primary Industry and Manufacture.  Also Crime seems too simple: for instance if Elves grow everything, and there's an opiate drug problem in the city, the elves are probably growing it.  Maybe that's not really a problem.  Hm, now I feel like dwarves should be running the hotels. 
 

Benevolent religious group that only seeks to bring peace
-> Medical District, lead by a religious order.

[Virex]

 

The benevolent religious group could be big coal powered robots who worship a Great Mechanic.

I'm not too fond of the idea of lolrobots just existing as separate beings, except maybe in the form of Golemns. Perhaps they are or were humans but they replace pieces of their body with mechanical parts as rites of passage and to extend their service past death? Their veterans and high priests would be complete machines as proof of their dedication and piousness.


Also, I don't think that the borders should be solidified, there's no reason why one can't have Human farmers or Orc miners. But, due to racial stigmatization they would be rare.


Edit: We completely forgot the Mermen in this picture (well, they're not in Tolkien's novels, but they're standard enough). Maybe they'd be smugglers that bring in stuff from the outside world, as well as messengers, fishers and boatsmen for transport through the canals?

[melkorp]

Yeah, I was thinking of Biag's comment about an oppressed fantasy race being forced to serve another, the truly creepy automatons from Thief 2 the Metal Age (didn't they have orphan children souls or something horrific?), and Battlestar Galactica, where the robots are serene, devout monotheists while the humans are dystopian pantheists.  Or maybe the dwarves originally created them and they've recently been provisionally granted a tenuous form of citizenship but there's a cultural prejudice between the dwarves and them that the other cultures get dragged into.

Yeah, not all police should be orcs, but the chief of police should be.  The mayor should be human, though there are elves on his cabinet, etc.  Cultural trends with exceptions.

Merfolk would make excellent smugglers in a locked-down island city.

Siquo, I'm American, so grids look normal to me.  Having no diagonal streets at all would probably be weird, though.  I just figured grids that wrap around rectangles would be an easier algorithm.  Have a look Venice for the closest actual city layout to what I've envisioned so far.