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Author Topic: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea  (Read 8723 times)

melkorp

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Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« on: January 22, 2012, 06:53:23 pm »


Well the first step is to try and define what a town is.
What does a town have in it? What is absolutely required? What is optional? Think about every possible thing that a town has and list them down. Buildings and subtypes of buildings, like houses and pubs, roads, people, wells, walls, trees, all of it.

Just think about what you want to achieve, and break it down into smaller steps.

If you follow this thought through, there's much more than enough material for a fun city simulation roguelike. 

PLAYS LIKE
roguelike
city simulation
rpg

FEELS LIKE
steampunk
high fantasy
horror
noir

IS LIKE
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (designed level sections embedded in otherwise randomized maps, permanent death)
Urban Dead, Nexus War (crude, nearly graphic-less browser mmorgs, player is trapped inside a dangerous city)
Slouching Towards Bedlam (interactive fiction, great writing, trippy meta-gameplay)
Thief 2 the Metal Age (gameworld is seamless combination of the 4 genres, great missions)

The first thing to do would be to think of all the things a city should have.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 06:57:24 pm by melkorp »
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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...It should be pretty fun though.

UltraValican

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 07:05:36 pm »

A Brothel.
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Hubris Incalculable

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 07:09:33 pm »

Shops of all kinds. Make sure the shopkeepers greet you like they do in NetHack.
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melkorp

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 07:14:30 pm »

a steampunk-high fantasy-horror-noir roguelike-city-simulation-rpg should have:

hotels
a train station
sudden fogs
an incompetent superhero
a newspaper
prostitutes
a great detective
tree lined avenues
unethical biotech corporations
slums the police don't go into
houses for sale
terrorist attacks
a lonely financial zone
local bands
spies
a gayborhood
skyscrapers
elections
illegal boxing clubs
an airport for zeppelins
serial killers
corrupt police
dance instructors
savvy bellhops
abandoned tunnels
secret societies
black markets
an arsenal
a leper colony
riots
a successful sports team
assassinations
opera
drugs
curiosity shops
powerful crime syndicates run by children
poets
regular parades
racists
reputable taxis
docks

aaaand a brothel and shops of all kinds.  The shopkeepers should certainly greet you like they do in NetHack; and mercilessly slay you if you transgress like they do in NetHack.
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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...It should be pretty fun though.

Quarynn

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 12:50:50 am »

What about a space station?
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Max White

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 12:58:30 am »

What have I doooone?
Also, posting to watch.

Tiruin

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 02:10:07 am »

Anyone forget the idea of Nature in an artificial environment?

Posting to watch too.

Also, presence of deities or supernatural forces like spirits as it is High-fantasy.
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Biag

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 02:10:24 am »

Zeppelins
Sky pirates
A wealthy residential/zeppelin-harbor district built directly on top of slums
At least one fictional drug that corresponds to meth or heroin
At least one fictional drug that corresponds to opiates
Men in suits
Women in dresses
Men pretending to be women in dresses
Women pretending to be men in suits
Men pretending to be women pretending to be men in suits, because Shakespeare
Made-up words that sound like British slang to Americans
Sewers, where the demented and deranged make their home
Older sewers under the new ones, where unnamed horrors have dwelt for centuries
At least one tunnel leading down from the old sewers to some kind of magical gateway to a horrible non-Euclidean dimension
At least one oppressed fantasy race forced into the servant class, maybe goblins or orcs
Ancient unexplored ruins squeezed somewhere between the slums, the sewers, the older sewers, and the hell-portal
Marriages
Drunkards
A Jack the Ripper analogue
A politician/socialite who is secretly evil, possibly the Jack the Ripper analogue
An open-air market with more pickpockets than actual customers.

So is the plan to eventually turn this into an actual thing?
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Max White

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 02:22:28 am »

I think we need to take a step back in granularity. If I were making a game, and I am, here is how I would start.

A town has districts.

Slums are a type of district.
Shopping markets are a type of district.
Regular housing is a type of district.

Districts have blocks.
Roads separate the blocks.
Blocks have buildings.

Shops are a type of building.
Shopping markets have shops.
Shopping markets have a church.
Shopping markets have an inn.

Shops have shopkeepers.
Shops have shelves.
Shops have counters.

Weapons stores are a type of shop.
Book stores are a type of shop.
Drug stores are a type of shop.

Churches have a preacher.
Churches have an alter.
Alters are to a god.
Churches have a pews.
Churches have a bell.
Bells ring at midday.

Inns have an innkeeper.
Inns have beds.
Inns have a basement.
The basement has a secret tunnel.
The secret tunnel leads to a drug store.

And so on and so forth, until you have everything you want in your town.

Tiruin

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2012, 02:38:00 am »

And a tiny bit: If there would be a horror element, it should be something everyone generally fears or hates due to something bad happening. There could be the obvious criminal murders, a secret cult, supernatural details...

Generally, something that is so revered by the common characters, it becomes a psychological entity in it's own right.

Like Dracula. Or Death. Or the number 13.

Just put somekind of history or backstory behind what you want to emphasize as horror.

If you're aiming for a city, most societies run on a chain of command to say it bluntly. There are leaders and followers, Max White states them very nicely. It has parts that depend on each other, and mostly always a trade market with other cities. There should also always be some type of hierarchy present, based on the setting and influence it has.

And even if many often do not pay attention to this, you must have a history on the place. History is very important in making your place seem real-- and sadly, mostly overlooked today.
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Virex

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 08:36:39 am »

I think we need to take a step back in granularity. If I were making a game, and I am, here is how I would start.

A town has districts.

Slums are a type of district.
Shopping markets are a type of district.
Regular housing is a type of district.

Districts have blocks.
Roads separate the blocks.
Blocks have buildings.

Shops are a type of building.
Shopping markets have shops.
Shopping markets have a church.
Shopping markets have an inn.

Shops have shopkeepers.
Shops have shelves.
Shops have counters.

Weapons stores are a type of shop.
Book stores are a type of shop.
Drug stores are a type of shop.

Churches have a preacher.
Churches have an alter.
Alters are to a god.
Churches have a pews.
Churches have a bell.
Bells ring at midday.

Inns have an innkeeper.
Inns have beds.
Inns have a basement.
The basement has a secret tunnel.
The secret tunnel leads to a drug store.

And so on and so forth, until you have everything you want in your town.
Why not generate all of those properties procedurally?
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melkorp

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 11:13:35 am »

As the OP, I reserve the right of prima nocturne the right to compile people's ideas into posts and respond

If there would be a horror element, it should be something everyone generally fears or hates
Yes.

I think we need to take a step back in granularity. If I were making a game, and I am, here is how I would start.

A town has districts.

Slums are a type of district.
Shopping markets are a type of district.
Regular housing is a type of district

...

And so on and so forth, until you have everything you want in your town.

Why not generate all of those properties procedurally?

Yes to all, look at Stone Soup for an idea of how "random" can co-exist with "designed" really successfully.

Zeppelins
Sky pirates
A wealthy residential/zeppelin-harbor district built directly on top of slums
At least one fictional drug that corresponds to meth or heroin
At least one fictional drug that corresponds to opiates
Men in suits
...
A Jack the Ripper analogue
A politician/socialite who is secretly evil, possibly the Jack the Ripper analogue
An open-air market with more pickpockets than actual customers.
Yes to all.
So is the plan to eventually turn this into an actual thing?
Yes.
Anyone forget the idea of Nature in an artificial environment?
Also, presence of deities or supernatural forces like spirits as it is High-fantasy.
No. Yes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 11:38:06 am by melkorp »
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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...It should be pretty fun though.

Siquo

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 11:21:29 am »

Oh, I'm so watching this :)
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
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melkorp

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 12:30:27 pm »

GRANULARITY
Has anybody played Cataclysm?  Extremely hard roguelike that does a great job with its map.  There's something about Cataclysm that gives you an unbearable itch to explore instead of holing up in a gun store where it's safe.  You can look at the screen and say: I'm the @, I'm in the bathroom of a house on a street in a town in a field by a river north of some woods. I don't think it actually tells you you're in the "bathroom", but you can see the @ is in a tiny closet with a toilet, so it's implied.

So if you could look at YASRI and say:

I'm the @
I'm in the kitchen (implied cause there's a stove?  explicit because if the game knows to put a stove there it's no big shakes to attach the word "Kitchen"?)
The kitchen is in a house (explicit)
The house is on a street (explicit)
The street is in a district (implied, not named)
The district is in a borough (explicit)
The borough is in a city (explicit)
The city is an island surrounded by water and the @ can't swim

CIAISBW@CS
Ah "the City Is An Island Surrounded By Water and the @ Can't Swim", my old nemesis.  "CIAISBW@CS" for short.  It's a cheap, tired gaming cliche.  It worked for me in Nexus Wars.  It could also give a Manhattan/Venice feel to the city as opposed to a Paris/London one.  It would also leave the city vulnerable to zeppelin sky pirates.  My instinct is to embrace it and never think about it again.

GRANULARITY CONT'D
Anyway, you're always the @
you're always in a building
     the building could be in a larger complex, like a barracks in a fort or a store in a mall
if you leave the building you're always on a street
     except if you're in a park, or a graveyard, or a sewer, or a mysterious portal that leads to a ghastly dimension
these streets or places are always in a district
these districts are always in a borough
these boroughs are always in a city
     except if you went through that mysterious portal

So there's:

person
room
     building
          complex
street or place
district
borough
city or ghastly dimension

hm, I guess ghastly dimensions have districts and boroughs too.  Actually that could work if they had the proper names.  Like your character could realize he'd dropped his pocketwatch in the Forest of Suicides on the Plains of Suffering in the Duchy of Azmodeus in the Terrible Dimension.  Maybe not the borough part; it'd depend on how ghastly dimensions are constructed.  Our game city should definitely be made of boroughs/districts/places/streets/buildings though. 

PLACES THE @ CAN GO THAT ARE NOT STREETS OR BUILDINGS
Public parks for Tiruin
Beaches
Graveyards
Junkyards/dumps
Public squares/monuments
Barren fields/rubble filled empty lots (for finding bodies and getting attacked in)
Ghastly dimensions
Sewers/Catacombs
Natural Caverns
Airstrip for our zeppelins
The keep of a fort
Field of ancient stone heads
Lovely public garden

OBJECTS, INTERACTIVE FICTION
Toady's post today about billions of objects in adventure mode cities making impossible memory allocation demands leading to not completely persistent cities has me thinking maybe our game city shouldn't have billions of objects in it.  A panel in the game interface reserved for interactive fiction-y descriptions could do some of the work that a hundred objects does in DF to describe, say, a gloom freak's lair.  On the other hand, that's what's so cool about DF, it sets a scene by inference.  Then again, a Stone Soup ascension involves a billion objects/kills/events and it's all persistent, or seems persistent.

EXAMPLE
It would be cool for an NPC to say "meet me in the Kitchen of the Marble Hotel on Wheel Street in Chelsea" or some suchlike.

So when I say "explicit" I mean the interface is telling you where you are, and "implicit" means that the area is a necessary map category that the player doesn't need to know about.  A hotel must have a kitchen and a borough must have a lonely financial zone where the hotels are, but culturally there aren't necessarily signs that tell you these things. 


Room (implicit?)
Building (explicit)
Street or Place (explicit)
District (implicit)
Borough (explicit)
City or Plane(explicit)

So to meet the NPC in above example you would have to find the kitchen by inference, as well as the lonely financial zone the Hotel is located in, which is easy since you have the street and borough name, and the kitchen probably has a stove in it.

It's a lot to think about, but it's fun to think about.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 10:59:43 pm by melkorp »
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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...It should be pretty fun though.

Virex

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Re: Yet Another Stupid Roguelike Idea
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 05:23:06 pm »

So, is there interest in making this a community project?
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