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[Muz]

Basically, the system says that you need 10000 hours or 10 years to master any non-trivial skill.

A common theme that appears throughout Outliers is the "10,000-Hour Rule", based on a study by Anders Ericsson. Gladwell claims that greatness requires enormous time, using the source of The Beatles' musical talents and Gates' computer savvy as examples.[3] The Beatles performed live in Hamburg, Germany over 1,200 times from 1960 to 1964, amassing more than 10,000 hours of playing time, therefore meeting the 10,000-Hour Rule. Gladwell asserts that all of the time The Beatles spent performing shaped their talent, "so by the time they returned to England from Hamburg, Germany, 'they sounded like no one else. It was the making of them.'"[3] Gates met the 10,000-Hour Rule when he gained access to a high school computer in 1968 at the age of 13, and spent 10,000 hours programming on it.[3]

Dwarves reach 'legendary' status a bit too fast, even for a race that's supposed to be naturally talented. So, suggestion that they take at least a really long time to be able to produce artifacts, and the artifacts they produce are at least a little more useful.

[Babylon]

Artifacts are the product of a fey mood, not of practice and training. 

[Sulz]

I think that he wanted to say "mastercfrafts" instead of artifacts.
And yes, I think that they learn it too fast too, but I think that 10 years is too much...
7 years sounds good to me.

[knutor]

My fortresses seldom last more than two yrs.  So I'm all for this change.  *thumbs up*  I'd prefer to be able to pick the material for crafts get implemented, say.. before mastery times get altered.  But that's just prolly just, par for the patching course.  FOUR!

Sincerely,
Knutor

[King DZA]

From another, somewhat related thread. But I think it's a fitting reply to this one as well:

Growing shouldn't be legendary-able in my opinion. Nobody wants to hear the story of Urst mc Farmer who grew giant plumb helmets.

And legends would be rareish. You won't have 5 or 6 of each type.

Not a legendary-able skill?! Then how am I supposed to justify giving all those legendary growers awesome profession names, like Plant whisperer or Life Crafter??

I need those 3 different bone carvers, even if only one does most of the actual carving. Else I'll lose the feeling of superiority gained from knowing if my legendary whatever dies, they can easily be replaced. Then my ego will have to resort to only feeding on the pride gained from all the other things I feel superior about.

[Loud Whispers]

Precisely. Dwarves with legendary skills aren't just skilled - they're legendary for being ridiculously awesome.

[GreatWyrmGold]

10 years of work to get to legendary skill, assuming average skill learning rates and no artifacts made, sounds reasonable...except for a couple things.
1. Alright, 10 years of work later and my dwarf is a...Great Mason. Wha? Ah, the idiot was pulling levers/dragging animals to pastures/partying/using the Broker Lifesystem Chart/hauling rocks to the workshop from across the map most of the time he wasn't eating/drinking/sleeping/on break. Dwarves aren't dedicated to their their jobs as much as they should be. Make parties easier to break up (i.e. without undesignating the room, which seems cheap), allow labors like pasturing animals and hauling stuff to the depot and such to be turned off, and make dwarves choose nearby materials more readily, THEN we'll talk.
2. Okay, between tinkering with the speed of learning and how much dwarves work, it takes 10 years to reach Legendary. Assuming a lucky early migrant, that means that you might have a legendary mason, say, in 3-5 years, assuming no artifacts. Congrats! That mason has been working longer than most of my fortresses! And, anyways, so what? Legendaries make more masterworks? I've had dwarves who weren't even near Master level make masterwork items!

So, what do I think needs to happen before this suggestion would be, in my opinion, A Good Idea?
1. Make dwarves more eager to work, or at l;east allow more micromanagement to compensate.
2. Make legendaries mean more than "Oh, I can make my rooms worth a crapton/buy the entire caravan with a bin of goods, but now my wealth is high enough that I need every dorfbuck to feed and protect my population." Let Legendaries craft magic arms and armor and stuff! Have them found worldwide guilds which bring your fortress prestige and power! Whatever! Legendary should be more than the end of skill advancement and a blinky sprite.
3. While we're at it, allow learning more from less. Allow kids, peasants, and so forth to watch friends and family work to gain skills! Allow masons to destroy stone practicing masonry, building up skill faster and cheaper than if they were making plain old stone blocks! As long as training can involve less reagents in exchange for less products and the same amounts of skill XP and time expended, great!

[peskyninja]

Dwarfs take a long time to reach the legentary level, you must be under the impression that they do it fast because you received a legendary or a experienced migrant.

[Jake]

And more to the point, the passage of time in Fortress Mode is currently rather odd; dwarves only need to eat something like twice per season, for example, and their periods of sleep are measured in days.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget we are in a "epic" world and thus training times for some individuals would understandably be lower then others. Add in that we are using different races and we have other stuff.

Also it wouldn't be 10 years to get to legendary. It would be 10 years to hit low mastery.

[Silverionmox]

And more to the point, the passage of time in Fortress Mode is currently rather odd; dwarves only need to eat something like twice per season, for example, and their periods of sleep are measured in days.

It's a necessary abstraction. I wish we could shift gears for military action: I'd like to see nighttime invasions and fight a battle without my civilians getting in the way.

[Neonivek]

One of the largest issues is simply that 10 years is an achingly long period of time for Fortress mode.

People get 100 dwarves and max out everything before they even get to 10 years.

[Muz]

Sorry, I don't really mean 10 years, since 10 years is a very long time in fortress years. But champions and legendary masons shouldn't take only a year to produce and nearly max out stats. Maybe something along the line of 3 years.

Dwarfs take a long time to reach the legentary level, you must be under the impression that they do it fast because you received a legendary or a experienced migrant.

I dunno, I get quite a few legendary dwarves, at least on the mining side. While mining probably isn't the most advanced of skills, masonry and engraving is a more skilled profession, and they master it too fast. But most of my memory is based on DF 0.28.181.40d (mostly playing adventure mode on the new one), so maybe it's a lot slower than I thought.

I think that he wanted to say "mastercfrafts" instead of artifacts.
And yes, I think that they learn it too fast too, but I think that 10 years is too much...
7 years sounds good to me.

Er, yeah, I meant mastercrafts. Artifacts are a little game-breaking in regards to skills though. I'm guessing that Toady intends to put something like low quality artifacts later on, since having a dwarf boost to legendary after building an artifact cheapens skill building.

2. Make legendaries mean more than "Oh, I can make my rooms worth a crapton/buy the entire caravan with a bin of goods, but now my wealth is high enough that I need every dorfbuck to feed and protect my population." Let Legendaries craft magic arms and armor and stuff! Have them found worldwide guilds which bring your fortress prestige and power! Whatever! Legendary should be more than the end of skill advancement and a blinky sprite.
3. While we're at it, allow learning more from less. Allow kids, peasants, and so forth to watch friends and family work to gain skills! Allow masons to destroy stone practicing masonry, building up skill faster and cheaper than if they were making plain old stone blocks! As long as training can involve less reagents in exchange for less products and the same amounts of skill XP and time expended, great!

Fully agreed. I think skills are much cheaper in DF than they are in the real world, especially since it takes literally no skill to make things like swords and tables right on the first try. Since skill gain is so fast and brings in so little, there's no need to even introduce education. In contrast, combat skills are so highly respected because they actually make a difference. The difference between legendary mason and an average mason just mean a little more money, a much more expensive fortress, and many more doors.

[forsaken1111]

Why is everyone saying 10 years? 10,000 hours at 8 hours a day with weekends off is only like 5 years.

[Muz]

Why is everyone saying 10 years? 10,000 hours at 8 hours a day with weekends off is only like 5 years.

Because some kinds of skill involve only 3 hours a day of focus. A full time worker is maybe many more hours a day, weekends off, hence why it makes sense for full time workers like miners and growers to max out skills much more quickly.