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[The Fool]

With no profit all media becomes mediocre in time.

Congrats, you just claimed DF is mediocre on the bay12 forums.

I cast summon lynchmob.

I cast Banish on the lynchmob. It fails its will save and is returned to its home plane.

DF is by no means mediocre, but most forms of media (mostly music and movies) will see a fall in quality if you pull away their money. Recording studios, and most movie cameras will become too expensive for most free media, and a noticeable change in quality would be seen. That's all I meant.

[LordNagash]

A little different. In all those examples, one industry replaced another.
Unless the movie and music industries start supplying an encyclopedia that is as convenient or more as wikipedia, it is a step backwards.

Um.... what? What does wikipedia have to do with anything in this topic?

In regards to the topic itself:

This will not work, just flat out. People can't even arrange a boycott of video games over their publishers nefarious dealings, let alone a boycott of the entire entertainment industry. And no, just pirating it doesn't count as a boycott. You can't have your cake and eat it too, an actual boycott would be no new music, no listening to radio, no watching television or going to the cinema and... well, nobody will ever do that.

People aren't going to give up their own personal comfort for a (frankly completely ridiculous) goal of 'destroying the entire entertainment industry' because of copyright law. The proper solution is to defeat this at the policy level, not burn the whole thing to the ground.

[Max White]

It was proposed that having one industry harm another is ok, with given examples such as cars replacing carriages. I pointed out that this was a flawed example in that the movie industry's products do not fill the same core functionality as that of the internet and online industries, such as wikipedia.

[TSTwizby]

If there is a problem, it is that there are so many people do things, not because they enjoy doing things, not for the sake of doing things, but for the sake of making money. In most cases, the fact that food still costs money excuses this. Time has shown repeatedly that, while financial incentive can produce great things (Such as Dickens' Christmas Carol, or probably most of Shakespeare), many great things are produced entirely for their own sake, money being a secondary, or even totally nonexistent concern (such as DF, or Wikipedia, or Calvin and Hobbes). This is not an easy problem to solve. The last true full scale attempt, as far as I am aware, was the USSR, and no matter your views, I think we can all agree that it didn't really work out in the end. Whatever happens will happen, largely without individuals' intentions having anything to do with it, and however things turn out, if you can't live with it, no one else can either.

I'm not really sure if that made any sense. Basically, take the long view. Enjoy what you have, rather than what you want.

[MAurelius]

Ok, that's fair. I guess what I was thinking is that a new media industry that was decentralized and far superior would rise up from the ashes of the current, ridiculous industry that only knows how to buy off politicians and sue 87 year old grandmothers. That would be the "omelet" that would come as a result of breaking the media eggs, AND those folks who lost their jobs could get new ones in this (probably more beneficial to the working people anyway) system.

Idealistic, perhaps. So I'll take your slings and arrows.

[Frumple]

Folks, I don't even know. All I can really add to this is that I've, personally, been feeding my entertainment cravings for the last many-years (Decade+ and going) on 90%+ legitimately free material, stuff produced and distributed with no requests for renumeration, just appreciation (though donations are always welcome ).

I personally wouldn't feel, from an entertainment perspective, the disappearance of major media much at all.

All I'm really saying, I guess, is that I personally feel that people underestimate just how much is out there that's completely, willingly and happily, gratis, right here, right now. The thought that entertainment will somehow disappear in whole without this massive industry around and behind it is obviously flawed. The thought that there will be a reduction in quality entertainment is almost equally flawed. That there would be a reduction in raw quantity is about all could be said, from what I can see.

I could live with a 10% drop if it meant the folks pushing crap like PIPA disappeared.

[Phmcw]

Destroy it by any mean necessary. I often try to convince peoples that buying anything from conventional channel is unethical and self destructive.
Now there are wonderful things done, but not in Hollywood anymore anyway (yeah I watched citizen Kane recently, fuck what Hollywood has become, they used to be the bests).

[LordNagash]

Destroy it by any mean necessary. I often try to convince peoples that buying anything from conventional channel is unethical and self destructive.
Now there are wonderful things done, but not in Hollywood anymore anyway (yeah I watched citizen Kane recently, fuck what Hollywood has become, they used to be the bests).
[/quote

That's a fallacy. There were just as many bad movies made at the time Citizen Kane was made as there are now, it's just that nobody remembers them. The same way people 20 years from now will remember Schindler's List or The Shawshank Redemption and not Transformers: Dark of the Moon

[Max White]

Destroy it by any mean necessary. I often try to convince peoples that buying anything from conventional channel is unethical and self destructive.
Now there are wonderful things done, but not in Hollywood anymore anyway (yeah I watched citizen Kane recently, fuck what Hollywood has become, they used to be the bests).

I don't think it is that hollywood alone has become some sort of horrible monster. It is trying to look out for itself the only way it knows how, what else would you expect? And really, look at most mainstream games these days, are they any better? Mainstream music? Mainstream books (Remembering twilight was a best seller)? No, most everything is shit.

We shouldn't be opposing SOPA and PIPA because the people supporting it are bad people, because that is rather subjective. We should be opposing it because the bills themselves are vial pieces of shit.

[optimumtact]

Hollywood doesn't need destroying, we need to show the distribution companies that their system needs to change. The reason people pirate is simple, either they do it out of greed, or they do it out of frustration with not being able to gain access to the media. We can't change those who pirate out of greed without a lot of work, instead we need to go after the other group.

The distribution companies need to open up to digital distribution in a large way and allow companies like HULU and netflix to freely stream the media around the world for the same price and at the same release times in all regions. Once you give people cheap and easy access to media they are likely to take advantage of it. All it takes is for the distribution companies to accept these new channels and really get behind them.

Take steam for example, I will admit that I used to pirate games to play, once given cheap and easy access to games by steam I stopped, I now purchase all of my games from online content systems like Steam.

[nenjin]

vial pieces of shit.

We must also find out whose job it was to put shit in those vials, so we may MOCK them!

[FuzzyZergling]

Hollywood doesn't need destroying, we need to show the distribution companies that their system needs to change. The reason people pirate is simple, either they do it out of greed, or they do it out of frustration with not being able to gain access to the media. We can't change those who pirate out of greed without a lot of work, instead we need to go after the other group.

The distribution companies need to open up to digital distribution in a large way and allow companies like HULU and netflix to freely stream the media around the world for the same price and at the same release times in all regions. Once you give people cheap and easy access to media they are likely to take advantage of it. All it takes is for the distribution companies to accept these new channels and really get behind them.

Take steam for example, I will admit that I used to pirate games to play, once given cheap and easy access to games by steam I stopped, I now purchase all of my games from online content systems like Steam.

Now this is a position that I can agree with.

[lemon10]

Hollywood doesn't need destroying, we need to show the distribution companies that their system needs to change. The reason people pirate is simple, either they do it out of greed, or they do it out of frustration with not being able to gain access to the media. We can't change those who pirate out of greed without a lot of work, instead we need to go after the other group.

The distribution companies need to open up to digital distribution in a large way and allow companies like HULU and netflix to freely stream the media around the world for the same price and at the same release times in all regions. Once you give people cheap and easy access to media they are likely to take advantage of it. All it takes is for the distribution companies to accept these new channels and really get behind them.

Take steam for example, I will admit that I used to pirate games to play, once given cheap and easy access to games by steam I stopped, I now purchase all of my games from online content systems like Steam.

There is no way to distribute movies/songs/games cheaply and easily globally, if the choice is between paying for a 40 dollars for a game, a five gigabyte (legal) online download+10 dollars, or paying a dollar to buy it bootleg, the vast majority of those in the third world would only ever choose the bootleg because of how much easier and cheaper it is, especially when you consider that in parts of the world people make far less then a dollar a day.
The dynamic is a bit different for movies and songs, but still is largely the same, why buy a movie for 10 times the price of a bootleg, or 5 times the price and need to use a good internet connection at the same time?
Not that SOPA would stop ANY bootlegging, but still.

Personally, I think that its reasonable of Hollywood to support this, they are trying to do what is in their best interests (stopping others from getting stuff they make for free, therefore meaning they will either buy it or not watch/play it at all). It IS pointless however (since short of the world going technologically backwards or total censorship in the US we are moving farther and farther away from a paradigm where music/movies/games work the way that they want them to and they have worked in the past).

[kaijyuu]

Of course it's "reasonable" for them to support this. Just like it'd be "reasonable" for them to support any law that gives them an advantage in the marketplace, regardless of the damage it might cause.


There's a point where profit margins aren't the #1 concern. I really don't care if hollywood or the music industry or any of those type of organizations tank. Just so long as the actual artists that support them can still make a living doing their art, I couldn't care less about publishers/etc getting screwed.


Now, torches and pitchforks are probably pretty ridiculous at this point, so calling for the outright destruction of these organizations is silly. Just make sure that the marketplace remains free and open and outside of their control. At that point, they'll either die out or evolve, and either is an acceptable outcome.

[optimumtact]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hollywood doesn't need destroying, we need to show the distribution companies that their system needs to change. The reason people pirate is simple, either they do it out of greed, or they do it out of frustration with not being able to gain access to the media. We can't change those who pirate out of greed without a lot of work, instead we need to go after the other group.

The distribution companies need to open up to digital distribution in a large way and allow companies like HULU and netflix to freely stream the media around the world for the same price and at the same release times in all regions. Once you give people cheap and easy access to media they are likely to take advantage of it. All it takes is for the distribution companies to accept these new channels and really get behind them.

Take steam for example, I will admit that I used to pirate games to play, once given cheap and easy access to games by steam I stopped, I now purchase all of my games from online content systems like Steam

.

There is no way to distribute movies/songs/games cheaply and easily globally, if the choice is between paying for a 40 dollars for a game, a five gigabyte (legal) online download+10 dollars, or paying a dollar to buy it bootleg, the vast majority of those in the third world would only ever choose the bootleg because of how much easier and cheaper it is, especially when you consider that in parts of the world people make far less then a dollar a day.
The dynamic is a bit different for movies and songs, but still is largely the same, why buy a movie for 10 times the price of a bootleg, or 5 times the price and need to use a good internet connection at the same time?
Not that SOPA would stop ANY bootlegging, but still.

Personally, I think that its reasonable of Hollywood to support this, they are trying to do what is in their best interests (stopping others from getting stuff they make for free, therefore meaning they will either buy it or not watch/play it at all). It IS pointless however (since short of the world going technologically backwards or total censorship in the US we are moving farther and farther away from a paradigm where music/movies/games work the way that they want them to and they have worked in the past).

I would argue that anyone in the third world wouldn't really constitute a customer anyway as they have so little money they are going to prefer the bootleg no matter what you do. But this isn't about capturing third worlds sales, that can only come as they develop and gain more disposable income. You want to capture your primary market of 1st world people with spare money who want an easy and convienient way to buy and watch the shows/movies/music they want. For them the internet is probably the best distribution service. The third world will eventually become a market as it becomes more developed. But steam proved you can sell things for huge discounts and make more money than you would selling it at a higher market price. For that matter so did the indie bundles. You can capture a lot of people who wouldn't ordinairily pay for your work if it's priced cheaply.

edited to make my point clearer