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Author Topic: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___  (Read 314292 times)

fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #525 on: February 12, 2013, 08:51:15 am »

I'm not good at the whole technical bit
Hey! That just so happens to be all I'm good with.

Spoiler: HugoLuman (click to show/hide)

My biggest advice for you would be, imagery, imagery, imagery. There was almost none in your poem and while I do tend to overemphasize it in my own work, you ought to at least have some as people really expect it in poetry. I would also suggest you try to work on making your meter a bit less consistent and predictable. A good way that I've found to do this is to take the exact opposite route, start writing alternate lyrics to your favorite songs, which are going to have extremely regular meter, then start playing around with it in ways that are still pleasant, interesting, and unexpected. It's also pretty fun to do, especially if you can sing.


I've got a poem I could use some critique on as well. My biggest concern is the ending, which I feel is weak but I'm not quite able to pinpoint exactly what it is I don't like about it. Any opinions are highly appreciated.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:24:22 am by fqllve »
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MaximumZero

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #526 on: February 20, 2013, 01:58:04 pm »

Nothing to see here, just a paper I wrote for school.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Sevariat

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #527 on: February 22, 2013, 11:34:55 pm »

I'm writing the story of a fortress in installments and would definitely appreciate any feedback:

http://stonetrance.blog.com/
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #528 on: March 04, 2013, 11:46:58 am »

This is a piece I just wrote to practise describing things.

Spoiler: The Dreaming Wall (click to show/hide)
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #529 on: March 04, 2013, 02:43:58 pm »

Nothing alive walks on the Dreaming Wall.
Sounds more aphoristic this way.

Quote
The vast bastion rises into the sky, bridging heaven and earth.
Bastion sounds awkward here. Traditionally it means only a particular part of a fortification, but it's usually used to mean any kind of fortress these days. Still doesn't sound right being used for a wall. Especially not this wall, since there is a strong connotation of safety to the word.

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The the ancient blocks that form the great barrier are more than mere stone: the gods themselves had built the Dreaming Wall.
I wouldn't really use a colon here, just because the second clause doesn't strictly follow from the first. Though it's clearly relevant, it's not really an exact description of why they aren't mere stone, so I'd probably stick with a semicolon.

Quote
The dimensions of the wall shift even as you look - the very tips of distant mountains, crowned with snow, seem to fluctuate in and out of sight.
I know all too well how tempting it can be to add lots of description in a single sentence, however, you should avoid apposition of non-topical elements in a sentence. If you have to describe them, you could say snow-crowned mountains. I also think this doesn't really describe how the dimensions of the wall fluctuate, or seem to.

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Gargoyles cluster like cancers on the cold rock, balefully watching all who approach.
Baleful makes a poor adverb. "The gargoyles lay their baleful gaze on all who approach" is more natural. I'm also not very fond of "like cancers" though it'd be hard to explain exactly why.

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slowly obliterating the eldritch carvings that spiral and squirm across the stone.
Slowly obliterating sounds a bit oxymoronic and silly to me.

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Towers loom like monoliths along the stonework, weeping ominous fog that wreathes the wall in a smog of dread.
Monolithic towers is stronger. When possible avoid simile for metaphor. Smog of dread is also something of a restatement of ominous fog. You should avoid stuff like that. Something like "wreathes the wall in its calid scorn (or callid, if you're feeling particularly adventurous)"  or "wreathes the wall with its acrid breath" would be better.

Quote
The land is grey and dead, the water black and foul to drink.
Fewer words the better, right? Would also use a semicolon here, as the verb in the second clause is simply omitted.

That was a good effort, you clearly understand some of the principles of description and there are a few sentences in there I really like "The Wall dreams of nightmares" in particular. But it could still use some work. You are thankfully not florid, which is the biggest trap people fall into with description, but you don't often hit on what I think is the most important thing to keep in mind, which is that every passage should be unexpected. It should reveal something we couldn't have known and couldn't have predicted. It should be fresh and use language in an ingenuitive way. You should basically always be trying to surprise the reader.

I'm going to quote one of my favorite passages of description, just as an example. It's by Cormac McCarthy and it's from Blood Meridian.
Quote
All about her the dead lay with their peeled skulls like polyps bluely wet or luminescent melons cooling on some mesa of the moon. In the days to come the frail black rebuses of blood in those sands would crack and break and drift away so that in the circuit of a few suns all trace of the destruction of these people would be erased.
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Chagen46

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #530 on: March 04, 2013, 06:45:45 pm »

Ooh, a thread on writing.

This is the first part, roughly, of a short story I'm writing:

Spoiler: Killing The Unkillable (click to show/hide)

I normally am kinda bad with imagery, so I tried to see how I could set the scene for an utterly alien and in-human world like the one the narrator is in.
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #531 on: March 04, 2013, 08:30:54 pm »

Humans, as a collective species, are all imbued with a quixotic desire to endlessly live.
A species is a collective, so you don't need to specify you are saying that, and also, all is strongly implied by the fact you are making statements about humanity as a species. Further, I would reword the last bit to read "with a quixotic desire to live endlessly." The best way I've heard the principle behind this described is that every sentence is a punchline, and you want to place the most forceful and unexpected word, the punch word, at the very end.

There's also a grammatical reason for this, generally you want the new information at the end because that's the natural point of emphasis. If it's anywhere else, you'll specify emphasis either through tone or italics (which results in increased emphasis). tl;dr: grammar is boring.

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The evasion of death and the prospect of immortality is wanted by so many.
Are wanted.

Quote
Cut off from the natural life cycle of the world, they twist the world until it becomes a shallow mockery of itself, and yet they always crave to live forever.
I would not use "the world" twice in succession like that. You could make object of the first clause "the natural cycle of life" to solve this.

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People like me never are told the names of our targets. It is merely standard procedure.
This seems horribly inefficient.

Quote
He had decided to take up residence in an abandoned industrial ghetto. I passed through several warehouses trying to find him, with no luck. The sky was the color of blood, the ground almost jet black. Hordes of broken machines, long since deprived of their purpose, continued to grind and crank, their broken and twisted beams and joints groaning form years of pressure. Not a single thing in this place was straight. Every metal beam, every joint, every piece of the whole yard was bent and contorted into nightmarish shapes silhouetted against the blood-red sky.
I like this paragraph, except for two things. Almost jet black is too noncommittal for so stark a color, and I'm not sure that I would describe the sky as blood-red twice in so short a space.

Quote
The buildings were holed, in ruins and shambles, barely holding themselves together while the jagged holes in them widened with every falling piece. The ground itself was practically writhing in pain as the vibrations from the endless contraptions tore it; cracks ranging from tiny breaks to fissures large enough to swallow a whale were everywhere.
Holed is an unusual way to describe buildings, I would try to come up with something else. The second sentence should be in past tense again, or should be combined with the first as a simultaneously occurring dependent clause.

Quote
I must've looked utterly out of place. A small girl like me, wandering this place, clad in a short and somewhat attractive red dress? I did not belong in this place. Then again, I wasn't exactly a normal girl.
Interesting twist there. Three things: drop the question mark. Definitely drop the somewhat from attractive, it's too noncommittal again, you've got to believe in your imagery or your readers won't either. Don't worry, your readers will rarely interpret anything as strongly as you will. Finally, saying the narrator doesn't belong is the same as saying she's out of place, so I'd kill that second one.

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All I had to do was wait, and hope that being a newbie at this wouldn't get ME killed.
Italics are better than capitals for emphasis. I'm not sure how I feel about this twist, the narrator doesn't seem new. I would go back and make an effort to at least hint at her being a newbie if I were going to keep this.

Quote
I walked outside of the warehouse.
You hadn't made reference to any specific warehouse yet. I would say something like "the warehouse I was in" to remedy that.

Quote
But what took my eye most was that he had spend an obviously massive amount of time making the place a death trap.
It might just be me, but I don't like having adverbs and adjectives so close together unnecessarily. I would say, "had obviously spent a massive amount of time."

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Everywhere I could look, massive sawblades were connected everywhere.
Could look should just be looked, it's best to avoid conditionals if at all possible and this one is a bit awkward. Drop the second everywhere.

Quote
They diligently spun, whirring quite loudly.
The "quite" here again lessens the impact of your language. I also think "spun diligently" sounds better.

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Long and jagged beams had been used to connect them—they were anchored to everything: other beams, walls, the round, towers—anywhere he could anchor some metal, there was several beams sticking out of it.
I'm not quite sure what "the round" is in reference to.

Quote
Silhouetted in black against the sky of blood, it was a bloodcurdling sea of eldritch contraptions.
The reference to the blood colored sky is probably fine here, however, having that so close to bloodcurdling just makes the sentence read awkwardly. I prefer bloodcurdling sea, honestly, so I would describe the sky elsewise.

Quote
I walked slowly through the field. During such times, the hunter and the hunted rarely spoke. There was no need—after all, we both knew why the other was there. What good would communication do? We were natural predators.
This confuses me. First, you haven't made reference to any field yet, so that seems to come out of nowhere. Second, has the man she's hunting appeared already? Because this seems to describe it as if he had.

All told I enjoyed it. Some of your imagery was nice and most of the problems were minor problems of wording that are easily fixed. I would read more. But I would definitely advise two things, that you focus more and avoiding repetition, and that you undermine the force of your descriptions less. The latter is especially important because readers just aren't going to trust you if you seem unsure about what you're describing. If you are unsure, then you should find a different way to say what you're getting at because otherwise you come off as indecisive and wishy-washy. It's a really small thing that's easily fixed, but it can have a big impact on reader perceptions.

Another thing is that I felt like you were focused so much on description that there wasn't enough exposition to adequately acquaint me with the world of the story. How do these people live as long as they do? Why does this corrupt them? Why do they seem to live in such hostile places, alone? I understand that some of these questions might be answered later, but I feel like they weren't even really acknowledged by the story, which makes the hopes that they will be answered not exactly warranted. I would tease the reader a bit, let them know that you do have answers, and you will provide them, but that they'll have to keep reading if they want to find out.

Like I said, I would read more though.
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Chagen46

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #532 on: March 04, 2013, 09:08:37 pm »

Ah, thank you so much for your critique! I'll answer a few of your questions:

Quote
This confuses me. First, you haven't made reference to any field yet, so that seems to come out of nowhere. Second, has the man she's hunting appeared already? Because this seems to describe it as if he had.

By field, I meant the area she was in--the place with a massive amount of sawblades. That WAS worded awkwardly.

Also, the man already knew that she was there. What she meant was that he knew that she was there, and that she was hunting him. In-story, the immortals basically ARE the locations and are acutely aware of everything going on in them--almost like gods ruling their domain. It was just a matter of time before he showed up himself.

Quote
Another thing is that I felt like you were focused so much on description that there wasn't enough exposition to adequately acquaint me with the world of the story. How do these people live as long as they do? Why does this corrupt them? Why do they seem to live in such hostile places, alone? I understand that some of these questions might be answered later, but I feel like they weren't even really acknowledged by the story, which makes the hopes that they will be answered not exactly warranted. I would tease the reader a bit, let them know that you do have answers, and you will provide them, but that they'll have to keep reading if they want to find out.

Yeah. I tried to go for a minimalistic style for this story...it didn't go perfectly, as you can see. This was actually planned to branch out to a whole series on Fictionpress that expanded on things.

But the original idea was to be intentionally vague on explanation to emphasize how un-wordly and bizarre this world was. I think that may have not been the best choice.

EDIT:

Quote
This seems horribly inefficient.

Many of the immortals have casted off their normal names and have literally hundreds they use to evade being detected. Thus, names would be pointless for the hunters--especially when the worlds the immortals inhabit are so distinctive--being everything from an entire city formed out of stained glass, a world where the ground is above you and the sky below, a tower covered in bloodshot eyes overlooking a city where people who worship the immortal controlling everything as a god spend their entire existence chanting hymns of praise, and a place where the ground is made of endless geometric shapes all combining in Escher-esque impossibilities, it's pretty easy to find them if you look for them.

Anyway, thanks a LOT for all the critique.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:42:51 pm by Chagen46 »
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #533 on: March 05, 2013, 02:53:20 am »

-in-depth technical criticism-
Well, could not have asked for a more intensive critique. Thanks :D

Yeah, tenses have always been my weak point. Doesn't it work in the present tense after that though? I'm pretty sure stuff like that works... or maybe not.

I was actually writing it to the rhythm of a Pogues song, thus the "all" in the last line to match the beat. In retrospect, I suppose "We are more than dust" works just as well, having the same number of syllables.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #534 on: March 05, 2013, 01:21:20 pm »

Ah! Thank you.
I do so enjoy writing, but I don't really have anyone to read it through. I've taken your criticism on board, and changed my text a bit.

Spoiler: The Dreaming Wall v1.1 (click to show/hide)

---


To me , it feels kind of odd in the midst of all this talk about decay and stuff that suddenly you're talking about being a 'young girl in a short and rather attractive red dress'? It rather interupts the whole flow of death and decay you had going.

You seem to talk about the sky being blood coloured a bit much. Also, it could sound better to contrast the environment with the character, so rather than a red dress possibly mention that you got your blue dress caught on a rusty spike or something. I try to show, not tell (though I don't know if i succeed) which is rather common advice.

The idea that everything is broken up but there's loads of spinning saw blades everywhere seems odd to me. Surely they should all have broken and snapped off?

Is the guy there? At the end it seems like she's right there with the bloke than in his rough location.

If you're in to contrast, at all, possibly consider having a woman as well be the corrupting influence instead of a man. As women are more often seen as the bringers of new life, it makes a nice opposite to have a woman as the source of decay and rot.

What is 'the round?'

My own thoughts on the piece.
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Chagen46

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #535 on: March 05, 2013, 01:40:20 pm »

Quote
To me , it feels kind of odd in the midst of all this talk about decay and stuff that suddenly you're talking about being a 'young girl in a short and rather attractive red dress'? It rather interupts the whole flow of death and decay you had going.

The point is both to show how she is a bastion of sanity and normalcy in this lovecraftian world and to show the stark contrast between her and the world.

Quote
The idea that everything is broken up but there's loads of spinning saw blades everywhere seems odd to me. Surely they should all have broken and snapped off?

The world is decayed and obliterated, but the sawblades have been put up afrrwards. The man is actuay able to control and them fire them at will. He put them up after the whole world went to hell.

Quote
Is the guy there? At the end it seems like she's right there with the bloke than in his rough location.

No. He is aware that she is there, but he hasn't come to confront her yet. The immortals are, for all intents and purposes, minor dieties who are omniscient within the worlds they create.



He knows she's there. It's only a matter of time before he comes to confront her. He comes in roughly 2 paragraphs after the end of the excerpt I posted, actually.

Quote
If you're in to contrast, at all, possibly consider having a woman as well be the corrupting influence instead of a man. As women are more often seen as the bringers of new life, it makes a nice opposite to have a woman as the source of decay and rot.

Interesting idea, but I have other immortals who are women, such as the one who created a city made entirely out of stained glass.

Quote
What is 'the round?'


Typo. I had planned to put something there but forgot. I deleted it when I edited the story yesterday anyway.
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #536 on: March 09, 2013, 01:24:22 pm »

Also, the man already knew that she was there. What she meant was that he knew that she was there, and that she was hunting him. In-story, the immortals basically ARE the locations and are acutely aware of everything going on in them--almost like gods ruling their domain. It was just a matter of time before he showed up himself.
Ah. That makes sense, but it isn't really very clear in the text. Maybe you could try adding something about how the immortals have basically extended their consciousness to the whole area around them?

Quote
But the original idea was to be intentionally vague on explanation to emphasize how un-wordly and bizarre this world was. I think that may have not been the best choice.
Yeah I try to do that a lot in my own work and it can be really difficult. Basically the only thing I've found you can do is write a whole bunch of stuff that people don't quite understand until you get a feel for exactly what you can leave out, and the exact ways you can leave out that information. Anyway, you didn't take it too far, so it wasn't too bad, but it's something I haven't quite mastered myself so the only advice on that I can give is try to put yourself in your readers' shoes. Try to think of the questions they'll ask and the information they'd want to know, and try to come up with ways to hint at it, or even direct them towards the answers without being explicit. Be careful though, I've found readers are rarely as observant as you expect them to be.

Quote
Many of the immortals have casted off their normal names and have literally hundreds they use to evade being detected. Thus, names would be pointless for the hunters--especially when the worlds the immortals inhabit are so distinctive--being everything from an entire city formed out of stained glass, a world where the ground is above you and the sky below, a tower covered in bloodshot eyes overlooking a city where people who worship the immortal controlling everything as a god spend their entire existence chanting hymns of praise, and a place where the ground is made of endless geometric shapes all combining in Escher-esque impossibilities, it's pretty easy to find them if you look for them.
Ah ok. I'm sure that will come up later, so I don't think it's really a problem then.

Yeah, tenses have always been my weak point. Doesn't it work in the present tense after that though? I'm pretty sure stuff like that works... or maybe not.
Yeah the only lines that need to be future tense are the two middle ones in the part I quoted. The tenses in the rest of the poem are perfectly correct.

Quote
I was actually writing it to the rhythm of a Pogues song, thus the "all" in the last line to match the beat. In retrospect, I suppose "We are more than dust" works just as well, having the same number of syllables.
Oh, well it's a lot of fun to do, isn't it! But yeah, that works too. Remember though, you don't have to have a syllable for each and every one in the song, the thing about musical rhythms is you can stress and put emphasis on things that you normally wouldn't.

I do so enjoy writing, but I don't really have anyone to read it through. I've taken your criticism on board, and changed my text a bit.
I find that to be a significant improvement. "Shrouding in sorrow" is particularly better than either of the things I suggested.
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #537 on: March 11, 2013, 02:34:19 pm »

Status Update

Sick today. Sick
All day. Sick
Yesterday.
Most likely Sick
Tomorrow.
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MaximumZero

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #538 on: March 12, 2013, 01:33:38 am »

Nothing to see here, just a paper I wrote for school.
Hmm, that joke I wrote backfired. Go ahead and critique away, if you like. That's what I put it up for. Anyway, I got an A for content and a C for formatting. Stupid MLA format. Y U SO RESTRICTIVE!?
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #539 on: March 12, 2013, 09:44:26 am »

Ah, MLA. I always forget to put the damn page header.
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