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[fqllve]

The antiquarian was a wealthy woman to maintain such a stall (what is this phrase? Does "to" mean that the only purpose of the woman is to maintain a stall?), thrice the size of any other merchant's in the square. And in truth it was no mere stall, but an exotic merchant-tent of Imayyo, thousands of miles from its home and serving as a proud display (of what?) in the northern taiga of Neymsall.

I'm not sure how you would interpret that sentence to mean that her only purpose is to maintain a stall. I assure you it is grammatically and idiomatically correct and suggests that the stall would be expensive to maintain. The sentence is analogous to 'You have to be a nice person to donate to the homeless.' It might be easier to parse the other way around 'To maintain such a stall the antiquarian was a wealthy woman' or even more clear 'To maintain such a stall the antiquarian must have been a wealthy woman.' But the latter is far too editorialized for me to actually use.

The second part is supposed to mean something along the lines that the tent displays the wealth and worldliness of its owner proudly. It is unusual for the area and thus very striking. It is meant to draw attention to itself. That sentence is kinda crappy now that you mention it though.

Hey, has it ever occurred to you that your characters are grubby stereotypes?

I'll admit the characters aren't well-developed. But they're not really supposed to be, there wasn't enough room for it and the story isn't really about them. It's more of a parable than a study.

Also also, look -- I'm going through the rest of the story and despairing. Now, I would be the last person to want to hear that my story is completely broken, but there's kind of no getting around it.

I'm sorry but this just doesn't match my experiences with this story. I actually had someone express interest in publishing it before I told them that I'd already used up the electronic rights. I do have things I'll readily admit are completely broken, but I'd be really surprised if this were one of them. I'm not saying it's perfect, it has it's deficiencies, but I'd be shocked if it were as much of a mess as you're suggesting!

Finally, what is this sentence?

His face pinched in rage and the cords of his neck tensed, lifting his shoulders.

E: I get it now; it still doesn't help the fact that we're suddenly talking about the actions of the cords of a neck. Or maybe the fact that his shoulders lifted is more important than the fact that his cords tensed.

What? When someone tenses their shoulders to raise them you can see the tendons on either side of the neck. It's just a description of his posture.

P.S. It's occurred to me that you might be interested in a list of things that are wrong with your story:

• Bad, uninteresting plot, including the lack of a hook.
• Poor, simplistic descriptions with generic adjectives of the "good", "bad", "ugly" kind.
• Unrealistic dialogue; do you think 13th century people talked like that?
• Lack of logic

It has a hook. I always write a hook, I actually already mentioned what the hook is.

Yet in spite of the multitude of objects displayed Casmus knew that what brought him here was well-hidden.

You could argue it isn't a very good hook. It certainly doesn't grab attention like the one HugoLuman suggests, but it does suggest a greater depth to the story than is immediately apparent and at least attempts to pique interest. What has the man come here for and what would cause it to be well hidden? Ideally it would make the reader wonder those things.

The adjectives (and adjective phrases) in order are: spacious, wealthy, thrice the size, exotic, proud, wondrous, discerning, black, deep blue, least, mundane, ancient, foreign, of legend, of local legend, well-known, well-hidden, bronze, fine, unnerving, rose silk, humiliated, presumptuous, and hot beyond his capacity to sense. Beyond black and deep blue, which are both in the part that I cut, and proud, which is in the sentence I admitted needs replaced, I'm not really seeing how the adjectives are simplistic. Maybe wondrous could go too. e: missed some

I'm confused about your complaints on my dialogue. First it is too biblical, then when I point out it is (intentionally) anachronistic you say it is too modern. If I wrote historically accurate dialogue then the whole thing would be in Middle English! The dialogue is a stylistic choice. The antiquarian in particular is supposed to sound modern and out of place to imply that there is more to her nature than is readily apparent at first glance.

How exactly do you mean it lacks logic? I had a logic in mind when writing the story so specific examples that are illogical would be helpful.

The solution to pretty much all of this issues would be, I think, reading a lot -- what plots people are interested in, what words authors manage to use for descriptions, how they bring the dialogue of a different era to life, and how logic of language works, I guess.

I'm actually kind of offended by this because it's about me personally and not my story. It also bothers me because you seem to have the impression that I don't read. In fact I read constantly and I read critically, and I'm surprised and somewhat disappointed in myself that it didn't show through my writing. Furthermore, I'm actually well-acquainted with the way language works and linguistics is probably the only thing I'm more passionate about than literature.

[Supermikhail]

I'm sorry that you're offended. I remember warning that I would be offensive, but I'm ready to apologize. I kind of kept in mind that I wouldn't want to come off implying that you are unread (at least because you mentioned a book I haven't heard of in your previous post). But as you've noticed, my overwhelming impression was that it somehow didn't translate into your work. Sidenote: hey! In the end maybe it's my brain that's bugged! So sorry, I didn't mean to attack you personally. My hateful attitudes and mysanthropy are solely directed at your piece of work. Now, that we've washed the poop off a bit, let's do it again!

I'm not sure how you would interpret that sentence to mean that her only purpose is to maintain a stall. I assure you it is grammatically and idiomatically correct and suggests that the stall would be expensive to maintain. The sentence is analogous to 'You have to be a nice person to donate to the homeless.' It might be easier to parse the other way around 'To maintain such a stall the antiquarian was a wealthy woman' or even more clear 'To maintain such a stall the antiquarian must have been a wealthy woman.' But the latter is far too editorialized for me to actually use.

Well, it's your grammar. Albeit I don't quite get the analogy.

I'll admit the characters aren't well-developed. But they're not really supposed to be, there wasn't enough room for it and the story isn't really about them. It's more of a parable than a study.

Again, it's not about the room, it's about the way everything they do (or have done to them) is predictable based on their stereotypes. Of course the mafia boss kills the arrogant noble! I mean how else are we going to establish that the mafia boss is the bad guy! (Granted, it's not clear that it's the mafia who killed him. And it's not the bad guy... It's an analogy, you see!)

I'm sorry but this just doesn't match my experiences with this story. I actually had someone express interest in publishing it before I told them that I'd already used up the electronic rights. I do have things I'll readily admit are completely broken, but I'd be really surprised if this were one of them. I'm not saying it's perfect, it has it's deficiencies, but I'd be shocked if it were as much of a mess as you're suggesting!

Hey, at least you're not that guy!

What? When someone tenses their shoulders to raise them you can see the tendons on either side of the neck. It's just a description of his posture.

It's just that I had to give the sentence several takes to understand what's going on.

Yet in spite of the multitude of objects displayed Casmus knew that what brought him here was well-hidden.

If it's a hook for anything, it's for an adventure game (I admit, I could have done it funnier). Especially since it's at the end of a long expository scene. And neither the scene nor Casmus are very appealing for us to care if the item is found. It's not like there is tension when the hook is revealed. I mean if you fascinatingly listed all the various items in the tent and then it turned out that Casmus doesn't care for any of them, then it would have been a hook.

The adjectives (and adjective phrases) in order are: spacious, wealthy, thrice the size, exotic, proud, wondrous, discerning, black, deep blue, least, mundane, ancient, foreign, of legend, of local legend, well-known, well-hidden, bronze, fine, unnerving, rose silk, humiliated, presumptuous, and hot beyond his capacity to sense. Beyond black and deep blue, which are both in the part that I cut, and proud, which is in the sentence I admitted needs replaced, I'm not really seeing how the adjectives are simplistic. Maybe wondrous could go too. e: missed some

Alright, I meant metaphor and simile, and appeal to senses. Most of your adjectives don't tell our senses anything -- what we get is a dictionary definition. Maybe you could say that the tent spread around him like a cavern... Ugh. You see how I'm turning into a critic? I can't fix it, but I can tell you why I think it's broken. Why I insist on metaphors and similes? Because I think stories are more fun to read with them. Although, you could give half a crap if your readers have fun (who knows?). I mean it's all about getting attention, isn't it? For me it is.

I'm confused about your complaints on my dialogue. First it is too biblical, then when I point out it is (intentionally) anachronistic you say it is too modern. If I wrote historically accurate dialogue then the whole thing would be in Middle English! The dialogue is a stylistic choice. The antiquarian in particular is supposed to sound modern and out of place to imply that there is more to her nature than is readily apparent at first glance.

Too modern one line out of the blue.

Uh, I've compared your dialogue to some in the Song of Ice and Fire, with which I have no problem, and I'm starting to come to a conclusion that it's just not my genre. I mean, Martin's characters talk pretty much like yours. At this stage I can just blindly point at the sky.

For one, Martin's characters stutter. Yours are really going off the script -- except the modern interruption.

For another, Martin's characters don't speak the first thing that comes to their mind. They always hide something, and I think there's not enough of that in your dialogue. Or maybe it's stereotypes. If only the mafia boss could be less omniscient, and the noble less arrogant. And they are not likable. And... And...  I'm tired! I'm confused!

How exactly do you mean it lacks logic? I had a logic in mind when writing the story so specific examples that are illogical would be helpful.

I meant the logic of the language which we don't agree on.

In the end, we could play this game all day (and night. And day.) I suggest what I don't like, and sometimes how to fix it, and then you say that you've worked hard on this thing and everyone else likes it, and couldn't I explain more. I don't really see what each of us is gaining by it. It could be just that my ranty shtick isn't working, and you'd much rather have someone be nice about actual logic and grammar which called for just minor corrections.

Last thing. I'm of an opinion that unless you put it in a videogame, no one would care for this story in its current form (except you and me and your publishers). What do you think? I'ma fall asleep right now.

[Diarrhea Ferret]

Great! Alstar that's exactly what I needed, a huge help.
I'm gonna go through my second chapter tomorrow and see if I can tidy up the sorts of mistakes you pointed out in the first chapter. Hopefully when I upload it, it won't have any mistakes, or atleast different mistakes

I would just like to take the time now to say how much I appreciate anybody who has criticized my work, particularly Alstar for your in depth analysis. Great stuff! 

[fqllve]

In the end, we could play this game all day (and night. And day.) I suggest what I don't like, and sometimes how to fix it, and then you say that you've worked hard on this thing and everyone else likes it, and couldn't I explain more. I don't really see what each of us is gaining by it. It could be just that my ranty shtick isn't working, and you'd much rather have someone be nice about actual logic and grammar which called for just minor corrections.

I don't have any problem with criticism, you'll notice when you actually pointed to specific things I accept them, it's that your criticisms were kind of unhelpful. You say it doesn't have a hook when I already mentioned what the hook is. You say my adjectives are simplistic, I ask you which adjectives you meant in specific. You say my dialogue is to archaic and then too modern. It was hard to actually apply your critique to the story. I want criticism beyond just minor corrections, and you've actually provided it in this post, it's just that the others were lacking in things I could actually work with. And 'other people like it' isn't a valid rebuttal to any of your criticisms other than saying it was completely broken. If this story is completely broken I should just give up writing altogether because I've been at it far too long and put in far too much work for me to fail on such a basic level and for me to be completely blind to that fact.

Again, it's not about the room, it's about the way everything they do (or have done to them) is predictable based on their stereotypes. Of course the mafia boss kills the arrogant noble! I mean how else are we going to establish that the mafia boss is the bad guy! (Granted, it's not clear that it's the mafia who killed him. And it's not the bad guy... It's an analogy, you see!)

Actually, I'm glad you noticed that it's not clear the antiquarian killed him (because she didn't kill him), no one has seemed to. Also yeah, she isn't the bad guy or a mafia boss.

I see what you mean about Casmus being a stereotypical arrogant noble, he actually wasn't a noble until I wrote that "Lord of Amrell" bit, I just thought it made him sound haughtier. Do you think it would be less stereotypical if I cut that bit out? I just kinda wanted to tell a story about an arrogant jerk.

Alright, I meant metaphor and simile, and appeal to senses. Most of your adjectives don't tell our senses anything -- what we get is a dictionary definition. Maybe you could say that the tent spread around him like a cavern... Ugh. You see how I'm turning into a critic? I can't fix it, but I can tell you why I think it's broken. Why I insist on metaphors and similes? Because I think stories are more fun to read with them. Although, you could give half a crap if your readers have fun (who knows?). I mean it's all about getting attention, isn't it? For me it is.

Ok. I can get that. I actually have a problem with overuse of metaphor and simile, so I was trying to go in the other direction with this. Plus, you have to remember this is flash fiction, it's hard to fit in lofty descriptions when I was trying to make sure the story got told in under a thousand words.

Anyway, that sounds like a personal taste thing, which you might find this paragraph from one of my other stories more appealing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

John opened his eyes to a vast desert. Somewhere far behind him he could remember he was in his apartment, sitting on that ratty green couch of his watching television. But that was all rapidly fading now, blowing away in the breeze that did not exist here. The ground beneath him was parched and cracked and he could feel lonesome pebbles digging into the soles of his bare feet as he walked forward without purpose. The sky overhead had not seen a cloud in many months and shone a pristine blue that fell down to the yellow dirt of the horizon unblemished and unshaded. The air was filled with an insubstantial heat that seemed to come from within him rather than without, as if his body were responding to the perceived lack and compensated by churning and clenching so that a warm glow seemed to rise from his gut to his chest and emanated out through his pores in waves, filling the air and flowing out across the expanse, usurping the role of the ineffectual sun. Sweat glistened on his skin and he swore he heard it sizzle but could see no steam, could feel no scalding, only heard the quiet pops of condensed droplets bursting into the atmosphere from the ardent heat welling up inside him. still he walked on.

See what I mean about overuse?

For one, Martin's characters stutter. Yours are really going off the script -- except the modern interruption.

For another, Martin's characters don't speak the first thing that comes to their mind. They always hide something, and I think there's not enough of that in your dialogue. Or maybe it's stereotypes. If only the mafia boss could be less omniscient, and the noble less arrogant. And they are not likable. And... And...  I'm tired! I'm confused!

I'm not sure what you mean by going off script and stuttering actually, could you explain further?

I agree the dialogue was really direct, I hadn't thought it was too much of a problem but I was really running against the length limits, something Martin surely doesn't have to worry about! I suppose I'm not that good at nuanced dialogue under such constraints. I'm not used to flash fiction so maybe that's something I should work on.

I certainly don't think the story is amazing or innovative, but I do think it's at least mediocre. I wasn't aiming for the stars or anything, I was just shooting for a short, interesting read, the kind of thing that would appeal to someone who reads modern publications. I'm not gonna sit here and say it's artistically meritorious, because we all know it isn't, but I also don't think it's completely broken and I think there is at least some value to reading it. Otherwise why would I have written it? Why would I have posted it?

[schrocko88]

Just a little something I wrote when bored in Spanish class my freshman year of high school. I'm now a sophmore, and still working on this story. Constructively critic me!

Since the others seem to be going on more about the general feel of the story, I thought I'd go a bit into the nitty-gritty details, since there's work there that needs to be done, and I like to think I'm fairly decent at it.

Starting from the top...

"Good," said his master, the town blacksmith, Erolon,

I'd put that as "Good," said Erolon, the town blacksmith and Connor's master;
flows better, IMO.

Connor was the smith's apprentice. And, he had always wanted to be. When he was young his mother would often find him in Erolon's forge, listing to the smith's stories, gazing at Erolon like a father. Connor didn't know his father. He liked to think his dad was a great hero, off ridding the land of evil. Or a wizard, battling demons trying to break into this plane.

Choppy. Connor was an apprentice smith and had always wanted to be. When he was young, his mother would often find him in the forge, listening to the smith's stories, gazing at him like the father Connor had never had. Connor didn't know his father. He liked to think that his father was a great hero, off ridding the land of evil; or a wizard, battling demons trying to break into this plane.

He struck again, shaping the metal into a U-shape.

Don't repeat words in close succession if you can help it. Just say that He struck the metal again, bending it into a U-shape.

He was making a horseshoe, for one of the farmers. He struck, and struck, plunging it into cold water to cool when the need was there. Working quickly, he soon finished.

I don't think most of this is really needed, you can skip right to the end.

Erolon held it up to investigate.

Inspect, more likely.

When he did Connor noticed a scar on his forearm. Conner had never seen it before, because Erolon wore leather on his arms, to prevent getting burnt.

Dude's been around the smith since childhood and he's never seen the smith without his leathers? Either this is a new scar, or you're going to have to give a good reason why Connor's never seen the dude's arms before - and, more importantly - why he's suddenly seeing them now. A finished horseshoe is probably not enough reason.

Erolon looked at where Conner was pointing and, eyes dark, covered it quickly.

Needless detail.

This is a fine horseshoe. As a reward, the rest of the day is yours to do what you will,... But not in here;. Now, out you go out with you."

Minor suggestions for flow.

"No, no buts. Get on now. I hear Kimil was asking about you."

No corrections, but why is Conor the only one in this village with a normal name?

"She's in town?" Connor asked.

Unneeded.

Connor dashed out the reed door, and turning right, ran down to the tavern. The Bloated Traveler is was a moderately well kept inn. And ,the hub of all activity in the town of Capem. If Kimil was in town; he would find her there.

Would a smithy have a reed door? Most are open to the air, to vent fumes and keep the temperature down. I'm honestly not sure, (not a historian) but it rings false to me. I don't think that you need the fact that he goes right, unless you think we'll need a map in our head of how this village is mapped out. I'd say he just ran to the tavern.

As he approached the door, he heard a drunk yelling,
   "Hey, preddy liddle girl, come here and sit on my lap." These words came along with a chorus of laughter. "It's was probably Bumis, he's always starting trouble." Connor thought. Only this time it was different. ; This time it And, unknowing to Connor, was going to change the whole village.

I, personally, don't like the "write out how people sound," school of writing, but that's a personal choice.

One more line:

  "Get your filthy hand off me," A girl Connor heard Kimil scream "you're a. . . pig!"

Dude should know what Kimil sounds like, or, if he's in the tavern (it's a bit unclear), he should certainly know that she's not just 'some girl'.

I'll stop there for now. If you (or others) are finding this at all useful, I can keep going, but it takes enough effort that I don't want to go through this if it's not being appreciated.

Thanks a lot man! I took your advise and changed a few things and did a side-by-side, and it sounds much much better when I read it. Thanks!

[Supermikhail]

fqlive:

Ok, I see what the problem is now: we speak -- that is, write -- different languages! The way I learned my version of English, I couldn't imagine writing "he swore he heard it sizzle but could see no steam". I think it's best if we went our separate ways because we would always nitpick at the quirks of each other's language. Or we could be tolerant and accept each other the way we are: I can't understand how you can write like that, you can't understand how I can write like this, but in general we can comprehend the meaning of each other's writing. Hey, maybe in your neighborhood your story is actually good! I mean, it happens. I'm sure if you showed it to some African tribe they'd be thunderstruck.

But going to meaning, I can't understand how you can be satisfied with a plot like that, and a hook like that. And why'd it have to be flash fiction anyway?

Also, I wish someone would give me an idea so I could see if I can do any better. If I did, we'd have something to compare something to. If I didn't I guess I'd have to shut up and accept that I cannot provide constructive feedback, only deconstructive.

[fqllve]

What, how is that even the most grammatically questionable thing I wrote there? Clearly the sentence before that is so loaded with "imagery" that it's collapsing under its own weight and borders on complete fuckall syntactic nonsense. I seriously do not even see what is objectionable about that but whatever, you're right. I don't have to sit here and suffer personal attacks and condescension.

Why did it have to be flash fiction? I don't know, don't you ever try to challenge yourself? See if you can learn anything from trying something new? I normally write sprawling 12000 word epics about enjoying a sandwich so I decided to try brevity for a change. It was enlightening, although in your estimation I'm sure there's nothing I could have learned from the endeavor. Except that maybe I should stop writing.

Seriously though, the personal attacks were completely unwarranted and totally not conducive to whatever it was you were trying to accomplish.

[Diarrhea Ferret]

Hi again all
There was a quick question that I wanted to ask, it's regarding some of the criticism I recieved from Alstar which I was confused about.

So, I read through it - first off, before I get to anything deeper, you need to decide your point of view. We start off with a narrator, then we go into Antaeus's head, and stay there for about the first 3/4ths of the story, but after that we get little snatches of other character's thoughts wandering in. Either Antaeus is slightly telepathic, you need to better partition places where we switch to new points of view, or you need to remove the offending language.

Alstar could answer this question, or anyway, I don't mind.
It's just that I wrote my story in 3rd person so that I didn't have to stick to one person's point of view. I thought that was why people wrote in third person? (like first person for the detailed thoughts from one perspective, second person for instructions, and third person for jumping around different people's perspectives)
So I guess my question is, whether that logic is wrong. Should I be sticking to ones person's perspective at all times even in 3rd person?

[Supermikhail]

May I recommend http://www.amazon.com/Write-Damn-Novel-Step-Step/dp/0312010443 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_mode

[AlStar]

Hi again all
There was a quick question that I wanted to ask, it's regarding some of the criticism I recieved from Alstar which I was confused about.

So, I read through it - first off, before I get to anything deeper, you need to decide your point of view. We start off with a narrator, then we go into Antaeus's head, and stay there for about the first 3/4ths of the story, but after that we get little snatches of other character's thoughts wandering in. Either Antaeus is slightly telepathic, you need to better partition places where we switch to new points of view, or you need to remove the offending language.

Alstar could answer this question, or anyway, I don't mind.
It's just that I wrote my story in 3rd person so that I didn't have to stick to one person's point of view. I thought that was why people wrote in third person? (like first person for the detailed thoughts from one perspective, second person for instructions, and third person for jumping around different people's perspectives)
So I guess my question is, whether that logic is wrong. Should I be sticking to ones person's perspective at all times even in 3rd person?

It's not necessary for you to stick to just one point of view, but you can't be switching all over the place willy-nilly either. It's confusing.

I didn't get to a place where you did it in my line-by-line, but lemme pull up an offending section:

Antaeus realised that he had never even considered that Ulysses could have come from somewhere other than Brickets. <-- Antaeus thinking
“I wasn’t trying to! I couldn’t stop it! I didn’t want to. I didn’t. Didn’t want to...” The boy started sobbing again, as loud as before, but this time he was pressed up against the bars, as if trying to force his way out. Once again the black man hushed him until he was quieter. Ulysses was now staring at the child, an ugly smile on his ragged face. Ulysses, while never quite serene, had at least always been passive, it was for this that the villagers had tolerated his presence, even if they hadn’t liked it. But this new Ulysses was active: his eyes twinkled a little, but not in a good way, more like an evil glint. <-- Antaeus thinking
The black man turned to Ulysses now. <-- Antaeus observing
“And you? What is your crime?” Ulysses reluctantly removed his eyes from the child, looking the black man up and down. <-- Antaeus observing
Ulysses muttered something, shook his head, and slumped again at the back of his cell. The black man smiled a little at this and turned to Ken. <-- Antaeus observing
“My name is Scaerzimek. Now yours.” Ken could not help but feel that he had to tell him, he did not understand why.<-- KEN thinking
“My name is Ken.” Said the child. He licked his lips nervously afterwards.<-- Antaeus observing

You switch from Antaeus's point of view to Ken's, then BACK to Antaeus within a conversation, with no prior time spent in Ken's head.

Don't do that.

[Caz]

I have no motivation to edit. Reading the draft gives me a feeling of dread, and when I try to push through it it's like my creativity dries up. Maybe I am looking at it in too big pieces instead of cutting it into smaller chunks. I dunno.

Frustrating.

[Diarrhea Ferret]

Ah I see it now...reading through my second chapter I realise I do that a lot without even thinking about it. Thanks a lot again Alstar, you have been really a great help 

[Supermikhail]

I have no motivation to edit. Reading the draft gives me a feeling of dread, and when I try to push through it it's like my creativity dries up. Maybe I am looking at it in too big pieces instead of cutting it into smaller chunks. I dunno.

Frustrating.

Want me to insult you into action? Otherwise, it's good practice to put a draft away for a couple of months and then approach it with a clear head. Have you tried that?

[Willfor]

Want me to insult you into action? Otherwise, it's good practice to put a draft away for a couple of months and then approach it with a clear head. Have you tried that?

I think you should stop insulting people period. There's a line of reasonability here that you aren't quite seeing. You are making yourself into a cardboard villain in the midst of this situation. You seem to have misunderstood the need for "tough love," and you seem to have interpreted it to be a need for someone to direct hostility toward.

There are enough people to direct hostility toward in this world that we do not need someone who purposefully goes out of their way to be that person.

[Diarrhea Ferret]

I get the feeling that he was being sarcastic in that last post...