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Author Topic: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___  (Read 313082 times)

Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #240 on: June 01, 2012, 04:00:43 pm »

You know, amen to that, but I don't know what was wrong with the last attempt - I believe it was some flaming ninjas amidst a bear hunt, or something like that, and I do believe it was pretty spectacular, if somewhat confusing.

Albeit if I understand writing at all, it's those 4350 words that are going to get cut during the final editing, so I don't know what you're fretting about. ::)

I can't get excited about any attempts any more. I've been almost up to 20,000 - I believe I could have gone up to the coveted 50,000. And would have hated it. My problem is plotting, which I simply can't do on my own. I figure I'm going to write for the Internet (and with the help of the Internet) until I've got a best-reading novel, and then I'll know that I've got the knack, so to say, to write something to publish.

Now, first I need to get the knack of enlisting the help of the Internet.
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Willfor

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #241 on: June 01, 2012, 04:12:09 pm »

pretty spectacular, if somewhat confusing.
This tends to describe far more of my writing that I would care to admit.

I kind of wish it was true that I'm going to lop 4,000 words off the beginning of what I've already written, but I think I need to add 10,000 words to a point earlier on the timeline before I can do that. And then cut 9,000 of those added words. I started WAY too deep into the actual story, and my Act 1 is a bit of a mess right now because of it. I actually hate my first chapter with a passion, but I refuse to go back and fix it until I've got a first draft finished. I can see this taking at least three drafts before I get the beginning right.

I believe it was some flaming ninjas amidst a bear hunt
That's ... pretty damn close to what it was too. And I'm even using the same main character as that one featured in this book!

This book is basically a mash-up of a ton of my favorite things I've done in my previous works. I've cherry-picked my best, tried to fit as much awesome as I can into the outline, and now I've got to try to tame this beast of a book. I was too afraid to start writing it for 3 weeks, but it's going better than I thought it would.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #242 on: June 01, 2012, 04:41:54 pm »

I started WAY too deep into the actual story
Okay, stop that. Last time you added 10,000 years of exposition to your story, it was unbearable. And I think I told you that then, and still you keep doing that... Are you a George Martin fan? Did you actually mean 180,000 words instead of 90,000?

...Just kidding... A bit of chitchat. ::)

I mean I'm not actually trying to give critique without seeing the piece first. But you're making me sort of suspicious. How much of a need to add 10,000 words in front do you feel?
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Willfor

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #243 on: June 01, 2012, 05:51:21 pm »

My basic situation:

I have a story that has an inciting event. This inciting event ties the entire story together. The event sparks a social change within a society that prompts a conflict between several factions. The story that the novel follows primarily involves characters caught up in that conflict, and how they react when the world changes around them. There is a definite overarching plot of how these characters not only react to, but ultimately steer the conflict that the inciting event sparked.

The inciting event happens directly in chapter 1 with very little explanation of the context of this event. My current feeling is that without just a little more context, people are going to be jolted with the fact that the thing that literally makes my entire novel work happens about 1000 words into it.

Maybe I'm just paranoid though!  But that would be my reasoning behind adding a somewhat larger word count to the beginning.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #244 on: June 01, 2012, 06:45:53 pm »

Okay, I've got a couple of questions.

Is your intended audience Bay12ers or someone like them?

What is your ideal critique situation? A single dedicated person, a fair sample of the population, the majority, the top critics?

Ideal? Well, no one has ever offered critique on my damn philosophical observations and rantings, I just get mountains of praise; which honestly pisses me off. Sure, tell me you love it, but explain why. The vocabulary? The rhythm? The flow of words? The emotions painted? The message? Make's me rage.

Its like handing in a painstakingly-crafted multi-page report to your college professor, they hand it back to you saying "Acceptable" and give you no information on what grade you have, how 'acceptable' it is, what you might have f*cked up, etc.
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #245 on: June 02, 2012, 02:34:06 am »

My basic situation:

I have a story that has an inciting event. This inciting event ties the entire story together. The event sparks a social change within a society that prompts a conflict between several factions. The story that the novel follows primarily involves characters caught up in that conflict, and how they react when the world changes around them. There is a definite overarching plot of how these characters not only react to, but ultimately steer the conflict that the inciting event sparked.

The inciting event happens directly in chapter 1 with very little explanation of the context of this event. My current feeling is that without just a little more context, people are going to be jolted with the fact that the thing that literally makes my entire novel work happens about 1000 words into it.

Maybe I'm just paranoid though!  But that would be my reasoning behind adding a somewhat larger word count to the beginning.
Whoah! Now, name me a single work of fiction that started with social commentary instead of an inciting event. That's right - the Tale of Two Cities... Er.

Alright, we'll wait and see. If it's going the way you're saying it's going, 10,000 words isn't so much. The only requirement for a beginning is that it has to be engaging, and the easiest way, as I see it, is to make something outrageous happen... Or I guess, to keep hinting at the something outrageous that will happen somewhere later in the story. Or spend some dough on marketing...

Okay, I've got a couple of questions.

Is your intended audience Bay12ers or someone like them?

What is your ideal critique situation? A single dedicated person, a fair sample of the population, the majority, the top critics?

Ideal? Well, no one has ever offered critique on my damn philosophical observations and rantings, I just get mountains of praise; which honestly pisses me off. Sure, tell me you love it, but explain why. The vocabulary? The rhythm? The flow of words? The emotions painted? The message? Make's me rage.

Its like handing in a painstakingly-crafted multi-page report to your college professor, they hand it back to you saying "Acceptable" and give you no information on what grade you have, how 'acceptable' it is, what you might have f*cked up, etc.

Whoah, hold your horses, Johnny-boy! That was, frankly, just a couple of simple questions to understand your position better (not an invitation to rant ::)). But I can understand it - all writers are frustrated by the fact that the world isn't going the way they envision it should (or hallucinate, in some instances).

So, what I've found out about your position (by inference) is that you don't think your writing is good and you want someone to tell you why. While mountains of persons extol the virtues of your philosophical observations. Er... I kind of see a conflict there. Or maybe I'm missing something because of the lack of data.
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #246 on: June 02, 2012, 01:00:41 pm »

I know damn well I'm not as good a writer as I want to be. I'm not willing to accept I'm a good writer. Ever. I want to continue bettering myself. I'm a very humble person about everything, not entirely by choice, as it ties into my universal self-esteem issues. Years of abuse and grief naming everything I do and love, my appearance, my passions, my tastes, and even myself as worthless and stupid by family helped worked as a catalyst to further f*ck up any semblance of pride I may have had in what I do.

I was the captain and editor of the art club in high school, have published dozens of poems, captain of the art club, volunteer and community representative in my region, award-winning debater on my high school's debate team... But I don't really see any of that as worth much praise.

I've never really been able to take praise. Every time I get a compliment I sort of expect to hear someone instantly chime in how worthless I am and how the person is a fucking idiot for trying to salvage my shitty self-esteem by lying about how terrible I am at everything. Just a depressing, unfortunate relic of a terrible childhood.

I've gotten past all my anxiety issues, severe depression, OCD, anxiety disorders, panic attacks, all sorts of shit, but that lingering 'You're worthless' voice has been there too long for me ever to truly silence it.

You can see if in my work, to be honest. Its a constant battle against myself, trying to redeem my spirit for crimes committed as well as a perceived dishonor.
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #247 on: June 02, 2012, 02:19:23 pm »

Er. Oh.

Okay, I'll pass on this one. I'm not a psychologist, and this ball of twine is too complicated for me to tackle. If I were to attempt an analysis, I'd say that's exactly the issue - maybe all the reviewers find your writing too complicated, or even sophisticated (who knows? I sure don't because I didn't go past a couple lines of that essay ::) I would say that's just not my genre, to be frank). As a way of pre-empting your inner demons I'd like to point out that this is just a hypothesis, a guess, and has no relation to my view of your personality, with which I'm not acquainted well enough to involve my view of it here.

I'm just gonna add that there's no necessary contradiction between being good and becoming better. There's actually not even a contradiction between being the best and becoming better, if you take time into account. But that's just picking on words.
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #248 on: June 02, 2012, 03:26:30 pm »

Haha, indeed.

Psychology is my strong suit, and my profession of choice. I can give you a hyper-complex analysis of my personality, causes of my quirks, and methods of treatment, but It'd be pages and pages long.

I don't really worry about that anymore. I've gone beyond my old self-esteem issues and today I just choose not to let myself get cocky about anything. It doesn't matter how good you are at something, there's always room for improvement and being cocky just makes a douche of you. :) If anyone ever asks me, I'm an adequate writer, nothing more. Let them judge my ability and technique themselves, rather than through my own subjective opinion of self.

Off that topic now, yeah. My philosophical works generally caters to a crowd more into reading sophisticated, macabre and/or ethereal pieces of a more vague and questioning nature, most likely due to my intense love of Greek philosophy, Lovecraft, and Nietzsche. Most folks who read my typical poetry can't wrap their heads around my philosophical work, so I tend to keep it separate from my super-dense musings about the meaning of life... :P

Once I get through some more Lore, I'll post a short story for something anyone can critique. Wait... I know! Here's an old short story thing that I later tied into my Scifi. Its just random really, no particular setting or backstory. It was done for some event thing protesting the abuse of military power as well awareness for the needs and lives of individual soldiers. Its... A bit of a mess. I never really edited, just posted it as is. The ACTUAL short story ends at the --- --- ---, the rest is a continuation/random thing I added for effect later on.

---

To Wish Upon a Fallen Star‘

A weathered television screen slowly comes into view as a barely audible news report begins its broadcast. Behind a nervous news reporter, a frantic mass surges forward from a crowded side-street, while a Global Defense Force Urban Pacification unit prepares to clash with sign-wielding protesters. Several Molotov cocktails can be seen jutting out from overcoats and jacket pockets, while others grasp makeshift clubs made of varying lengths of pipe; the protesters’ grips tightening at the approach of armored troops, assault weapons in hand. One makeshift sign reads “Where lies Freedom now?,” held by a frightened teen sporting a simple summer dress of faded yellow; contrasting the bleak urban cityscape which surrounds her. Flashing an uncertain half-smile in the camera’s direction, she walks into the open arms of destiny, as the writhing mass approaches the GDF checkpoint.

Zooming in on the blockaded intersection, the camera focuses on a lone GDF officer; the customary black uniform marked by a gray armband containing a single black star. Barking orders at his men, the GDF troops fall into a phalanx-like formation, and commence their forward march; weapons aimed out towards the uneasy crowd, covered by their tactical shields. A small number of protesters break off from the mass of bodies, treading cautiously towards the GDF position, while the rest trail close behind. As more and more citizens seep into the crowded avenue from adjacent side-streets, the GDF troops tighten their formation and fire nerve gas canisters into the crowd. The so-called “non-lethal” neutralizing agents are quickly absorbed by exposed human flesh, dropping a number of protesters to their knees.

In seconds, the flood of human bodies threatens to overcome the GDF defensive line, ebbing and flowing like a raging storm. Molotov cocktails are quickly lit and thrown past the crowd into the GDF front-line, littering the ground with shards of shattered glass and burning globs of homemade napalm. Raising their shields to deflect all incoming projectiles, the GDF formation reaches the crowd as the commanding officer gives his final order.

Gazing out towards the raging horde, born from the oppression of mankind’s collective voice and the tyranny of our world’s governing powers, a single powerful emotion can be seen upon his face.

Utter disdain.

Gripping a custom Heckler & Koch Mark 23 .45 ACP, his arm steadily approaches center-mass as he takes aim at the incoming wave of unarmed protesters; a twisted, apathetic smirk flickering upon his face, as his finger brushes across the safety. ”Eliminate… Everything”, he hoarsely shouts, as his pistol violently erupts into the crowd; once at first, and then again… And again… And again…

In a single moment the landscape changes from an oppressive sea of gray and black, into a torrent of blazing gunfire and concussive explosive blasts, spreading shrapnel and terror across the populated avenue. The bodies of the unknown begin to fall unceremoniously, eyes widened in horror as their comrades are torn apart by a hail of armor-piercing rounds. While the deafening onslaught of military-grade heavy weaponry clears a bloody path through the chaotic mass, the wall of armored steel marches further across a sea of red and black; weathered asphalt below their feet, littered with spent shells.

Once again the camera focuses on that young girl and her dress of faded yellow. Oblivious to the hell unleashed around her, a blissful half-smile is painted upon her youthful face as her wisp-like hair flows in the faint breeze. She stands there, in the center of it all, as if she were the final bastion of hope for humanity in a time of death and utter destruction; surrounded by the remnants of man’s voice of freedom, each of them forever silenced.

Suddenly, she is standing before the wall of black-clad GDF soldiers, only a few feet away from the smoking barrels of their rifles. Like a bright flower amid barren desert sands, she stands tall before the carnage; the sole survivor of an insignificant protest in the name of nonexistent human rights. Emitting a radiant smile, she casts a shadow of inexplicable doubt upon the soldier’s minds, lighting a tiny spark of guilt-ridden humanity within a few of them… A moment later, a single bullet pierces her skull; her body seems to fall endlessly, gliding downwards in slow-motion like the last leaf of Fall from a great oak tree. Without a sound, her body slams into the pavement, her yellow dress specked with blood. The black-clad officer lowers his pistol, as the tell-tale clink-clink of a single spent shell clatters to the ground. Each soldier watches her fall from grace, as the officer’s uncaring footsteps march in the opposite direction. Frozen in time, each of their gazes fall upon a crumpled heap, somehow clawing at their sanity from within. As if the crowning piece of magnificence upon a painter’s masterpiece work, she adds the final touch of perfection to a day nearly gone. Their hearts sinking, they question themselves and reflect upon a moment which fades away from their grasping minds.

There lies her shattered innocence; all that remains is the glow of her curious eyes, reflected in a great sea of crimson.

— — —

Through blackened sky, a single ephemeral ray is cast down upon the fire-scarred earth; illuminating a towering monolith upon which the following words are inscribed. A massive list of names are intricately carved into its’ surface, imbuing the great stone with a mysterious sense of macabre longing… Each word faded by the unforgiving breath and blind progression of time itself.

“Control lies within the absolution of innocence; bend a man to your will, break their mind, and enchain them within their own system, and they shall be yours to dominate.”

The soil bleeds for us all, vomiting back the rotting corpses of the damned, as if protesting the very presence of humanity within its earthly confines. Maggots stir within the flesh, consuming what long ago was forsaken. Shrieking specters dot the sky, screaming into the void of black; the violent inception of light threatens to overcome my shattered senses. Is this what we fought so defiantly for?

Here lie my brothers and sisters; lost forever in the name of greed, tyranny, and religious intolerance. To the blissful world of man, you are isolated incidents of unlikely misfortune. To the unbreakable system, you are a numbered list of statistics. To the undying war machine, you are martyrs of the day’s newest noble cause.

Though society’s memory shall falter, and history shall cease to recall your many names, the soil shall remember the faces of the fallen, until the very earth has turned to ash.”

“…And turn to ash it shall.”

Fifty treacherous years have gone by since the so-called Global Defense Force unleashed a flood of genocide and ethnic cleansing upon humanity, at the murderous hands of the infamous Bureau of Civil Pacification. Under the guise of an international peacekeeping movement – fortified by well-financed propaganda and questionable political connections – the GDF utilized their growing influence to install themselves into governments, banks and military organizations worldwide; in a few years’ time, they would gain absolute control of the global market, ensuring their rise as sovereign lords of The System.

Imperceptibly at first, the face of world government began to change; Laws were subtly modified to suit the militaristic agenda of our new leaders, as more aggressive and politically-inclined GDF-affiliated officers soon came into power. Military funding rose to historical heights as our people were gradually enslaved by government control; every aspect of our daily lives to eventually be monitored and designated by The System.

Sometimes I wonder if the entire war could have been avoided… I still shiver as I envision the ash-scarred faces of children who were burned alive in their mothers’ arms during GDF’s constant fire-bombing raids, their frozen expressions of terror and tiny mouths open in eternal silence… Much too late, it was discovered that the alleged high-risk ‘terrorist‘ targets had been nothing more than hungry union workers and worried protesters angered by the GDF’s adamant grip on food supply routes. Though GDF corruption and abuse spread through each city with the , their widespread influence ensured that any opponents of GDF control would quietly ‘disappear’. We can only guess at the number of mass graves one might find if they travel far enough into GDF-held territory.

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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #249 on: June 02, 2012, 03:28:23 pm »

Also, as you can see, I never finished writing the stuff I was adding at the bottom. Oh well.
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #250 on: June 02, 2012, 04:18:40 pm »

Okay, let's say I'm on a roll. But I don't mean to stay on it eternally.

You do know that you don't get good karma for old unedited writing? (Read: I'm making an impression of your personality here!) Also, here's why I chose not to post in this thread in the past much (besides psychological issues - yep, shit going down on this end, too; put on hold for the period of this writing): if a piece is boring I won't strain to snuff out grammar and adverbs. And "boring" is not much of a critique, is it?

Well, here comes the expanded version:

The real-time present-tense approach shields me from any emotion I might experience, surprisingly.

I guess the girl in the first paragraph is a strong point - I could care about her.

Okay, I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you went a more conventional way I could engage in this story. You seem to be going for painting a picture, and the problem with it, as I see it, is that you can take in an actual picture in a second and decide if it's genius or crap, whereas with writing you have to work your way through visualization - minutes upon precious minutes. ::) If you could convey the same thing in such a way that the picture could be taken in like an actual picture - maybe I could read in further.

The philosophy section is better in that respect, but without a protagonist I was lost at the third paragraph for what it was going for.

:Says a person who most likely belongs to the wrong crowd for this stuff, but who has been trying to cater to the actual crowd of this place and bases his outlook on writing upon his perceived characteristics of that crowd.
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #251 on: June 02, 2012, 04:53:38 pm »

Not sure how you'd get karma from writing - period - to be quite honest. :)

Aye, thank you for your opinion. I mostly posted that because its the only 'short story' I could easily find that I hadn't already posted here, and I realized I have been posting way too many off-topic things in response to other people's inquiries. That was a mainly visual piece, as you said, meant to serve as an emotional introduction to a later story, in which it shows how deeply screwed-up the nation has become - a precursor to the much more complex genetic opera that causes a nuclear world war, which is also just a vague precursor to the actual story that takes place a good 10,000 years after Earth is wiped out. Mostly just writing exercises to get myself into the proper mood. :) I was hoping to create an animation sequence of the story, hence the strangely screenplay-like manner of storytelling rather than my usual past-tense 1st/3rd person style, but never got around to it. *shrug*

Hmm, not sure if I understood your comment correctly regarding the girl. The girl from the first paragraph is the same girl that gets shot, hence the repeating mention of her yellow dress.
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"I am a member of Earth. I enjoy to drink the water. In Earth we have an internal skeleton."

Phantom of The Library

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #252 on: June 02, 2012, 08:23:50 pm »

http://maximilian-aurea.deviantart.com/art/Datastream-303258045


First I would like to say that it was amazing, and if this isn't the only thing like this you've done, why haven't you tried to get it published!?

The rhythm and flow is superb, two or three sentences a paragraph with similar patterns throughout makes it more like listening to music than reading. 

The ideals of imperfection, yet accepting that, resonate with me slightly in that I am accepting of past mistakes, but I differ in that I berate myself for not attempting to improve in this current state. Overall though, the message is simple and sublime.

Vocabulary and rhythm are pretty much the same to me as far as their usage goes, so for vocabulary the only comment I have is that a better word than analysis could have been used on the second-to-last paragraph, it interrupts the flow slightly.  That may be just me though.



I was going to say something about the fact that I can't accept my work as "good enough" yet, even though people looking at my serious projects have told me that I'm at a professional level, but I had the post ready in the morning and forgot to send it, thusly it ended up irrelevant  :P



If anyone else has anything that hasn't been criticized at all, tell me and I will do so.
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #253 on: June 02, 2012, 09:14:17 pm »

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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2012, 03:31:59 am »

Hmm, not sure if I understood your comment correctly regarding the girl. The girl from the first paragraph is the same girl that gets shot, hence the repeating mention of her yellow dress.
What I meant was that because of overall style it was hard for me to care for the story, but the vulnerability of the girl made it a little easier.
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