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[Furtuka]

And when did you get the right to declare that anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is retarded?

[Urist McEngineer]

Learn Dvorak.

Learn to use your brain before typing:

...The Dvorak layout is intended for the English language...

And not for games with deficient interfaces.

Ah thank you, I wasn't aware the english language has a different alphabet than the characters the GUI of Dwarf Fortress uses.

I wonder how I managed with my Dvorak Layout...

[Alastar]

Well, I rarely type English text of any length when playing Dwarf Fortress, and don't see any benefit of the Dvorak layout.
Although reducing hand movement for the language you're using seems a far more sensible design goal for a computer keyboard than keeping a mechanical typewriter from jamming.

[Starver]

Well, I rarely type English text of any length when playing Dwarf Fortress, and don't see any benefit of the Dvorak layout.
Although reducing hand movement for the language you're using seems a far more sensible design goal for a computer keyboard than keeping a mechanical typewriter from jamming.

When it comes to keyboard layouts, the fastest is what you're used to.  If you want to spend the time and effort to adopt a new keyboard design, unlearning what muscle-memory you have in order to then gain a few tenths or hundredths of seconds in subsequent typing, fair enough.  (I'm sticking to QWERTY, but I've been tempted by one or other of the "hand-typer"/stenography input devices, in the past.)

The main problem with switching, however, is that of the logical (or, as others may think, illogical) non-cursor direction/resize keys such as UHKM needing to be remapped by the end-user to suit a similar combination that works well with their layout (and doesn't clash, or can be made not to clash by further remapping, with other keys active at that time).

Anyway, my Dad has a programmable Casio calculator with a full alphabetical keyboard, in alphabetical order.  Horrible to type on.  Not because of the lack of reduced finger movement, but because even though I know the alphabet backwards most of the time is spent trying to work out where to send my fingers in the first place.  As a not-quite-a-touch-typist who never learnt the "home keys" method but sends the hands and whichever terminating digit is most handily available to the right key-top 99 times out of 100 (save for when I manage to djogy yjr jsmfd pbrt nu pmr[1], for an entire sentence or two) I'm happy with QWERTY.

But this has no bearing on DF, given that speed is not an issue.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, that you can always pause and think, or reverse (most) bad selections.  I'd already brought up the "delete this burrow" problem, which probably happens because I'm such a fast and innate (if not 'inane') typist.

Anyway, that's about the only thing I agree with KurzedMetal about, as should be obvious to anyone having painfully read everything I've posted here.


[1] "shift the the keys over by one"

[bombzero]

Learn Dvorak.

Learn to use your brain before typing:

...The Dvorak layout is intended for the English language...

And not for games with deficient interfaces.

ER MI GERD I HAZ TO LERNZ A HOLE BERNCHES OF BOOTONS TO PLAZ DIS GAM IT SUKS.

maybe if you presented yourself in less of an asshole manner and more of a kind person manner people would be nicer to you.
until you learn you not be rude to people offering a response intended to be a joke, im afraid you may be quite unhappy here. the interface is fine as is, and is intended to be fixed in the future.

[thvaz]

You know, i played DF for a while, I forged some metal weapons, killed a few titans, was fun but... i just got tired of the interface.
Now i only lurk this forums, from time to time, hoping for the 'Presentation Arc' and the 'Interface Overhaul'.
Anyone here who says the interface is "Ok" are retarded fans with no objective view of the problem.
You can get RSI just for playing DF.

Bye forums, c ya in another several months or maybe not.

You won't be missed, idiot.

[Gatleos]

For a joke thread, there seems to be a lot of hostility here. For Sankisakes, there's nothing to argue about! The interface is bad, Toady will fix it at some point. That's it.

[Gizogin]

The ingame UI is fine really...
It's just that you HAVE to use Dwarftherapist to seriously play this game otherwise you will go INSANE trying to find someone good at a certain task that needs to be done.

Seriously... try finding a proficient soapmaker in a 80+ fort without using DT.

Umm, I've been playing DF for a significant amount of time now, and I've never even used DT.  There are a few reasons for this, one being that I play on a Mac and there don't seem to be any compatible tools.  I know what it does, though, and I'm just not convinced it's necessary.  I don't really have that much trouble managing 200 dwarves.

Reading that again, I realize it's stupid to say that.  By "managing" the dwarves, I really mean "letting them go about their business."  I hardly ever bother to change the labors of my migrants once I get past 100 or so, because by then I have a legendary or two in all the industries I use.

[Mickey Blue]

DF has a bad interface, its the primary reason the game has such a high barrier to entry, that said once you get the hang of it the actual keys aren't too bad and I much prefer the keyboard interface option so quickly hotkey around rather than a mouse and windows (though having both options wouldn't be a bad thing).

I will say some of the biggest issues I have with the interface seem (to my ignorant to coding mind) easy-ish to fix.  Granted I've been playing long enough to get over some of the more random letters and such but some things that are much harder to get over are the lists/menus.  I wish they could be alphabetical, or perhaps even searchable (like the jobs menu is).  An example is trying to search for a specific dwarf in many (and all those that died before), or looking for a specific kind of stone, that sort of thing.

As for the key commands themselves.. For the most part they are obvious, and the game does a good job at listing them all so you can muddle through, but it is important to remember most of us have been playing for a while and some of the less obvious ones we now know.

Lastly, really, while I no longer rely on Dwarf Therapist (or any other 3rd party UI band aid) the fact is a great many people do (and I certainly used to), and any game where the majority of the players (even veteran players) feel that you have to have a 3rd party program just to be able to play screams bad UI design.  AAA games get their UIs bashed for far less (granted you pay for those games..)

I'd love to see some.. Love.. Given to the UI, not necessarily a complete overhaul but at least fixing some of the easier to fix issues like having more sortable/searchable lists, etc.  But it is hardly the crippling problem that most people make it out to be. 

[agatharchides]

Part of what bothers me about the interface isn't just what is there, it's what isn't there. Without things like DT there isn't a good place to information about your dwarves and there are a lot of commands you can't issue. Even just the ability to automatically have the dwarves brew more booze when stocks fall below 100 would save a lot of time spent in repetitive micromanagement. It is true that sometimes it is hard to remember what key does what, but IMHO a bigger problem is what can't be done without 3rd party tools or can't be done at all.

[Mickey Blue]

Has DT changed a lot? What commands cannot be issued in game that can be issued in DT? Or are you talking about other 3rd party programs?

I have used a number of them when I was new to the game and while they do simplify things greatly (it would be nearly impossible to micromanage a huge fortress like you can with DT) you can do everything in-game that you can do with DT and other 3rd parties I've used.

[Alastar]

Part of what bothers me about the interface isn't just what is there, it's what isn't there ... Even just the ability to automatically have the dwarves brew more booze when stocks fall below 100 would save a lot of time spent in repetitive micromanagement. It is true that sometimes it is hard to remember what key does what, but IMHO a bigger problem is what can't be done without 3rd party tools or can't be done at all.

Hmm. Being able to script orders would be nice, being able to set target numbers would be a more reasonable compromise.

[Roflcopter5000]

I enjoy how DT is so widely used that people discussing the UI in this forum go 2-3 pages before someone remembers that the (arguably) most important common task (labor management) in the game lays behind a UI that has nothing going for it.

I mean that. Nothing. There is nothing intelligent or efficient or remotely 'good' about the process of using the default interface to manage labor assignments. It's a -TERRIBLE- interface. It has severe limitations on information that can be displayed to the player at once, requires far too many key presses to change even the simplest labor settings... It is really just all bad.

Granted, the limitations of the chosen visual medium that Toady has consigned himself to working with are quite great. But even considering that, it is still utterly absurd that the only way to see what skills a given dwarf has available to him is via a tiny sub-screen that must be manually scrolled through with a truly retarded number of key presses. Oh, and the legendary soapmaker will continue to display as a soapmaker in the game until his death despite the fact that he hasn't had 'soapmaking' enabled for 25 years. And the only screen that you can use to view all of your citizens can't be searched or filtered in any way, forcing you to manually page down a list that is 'sorted' by some strange arcane rules that are never stated or even close to easily decipherable.

Also, relatedly, assigning dwarves to military service: There is no way to know if a given dwarf is already part of a squad when choosing whether or not to assign him to your new squad? In what way does that make any fucking sense at all ever?

No, this game's interface has some HUGE problems, and it is not at all melodramatic to bitch about it. People aren't talking about how hard it is to build a chair or a workshop. That is simple. Managing your dwarves? Not even remotely so.

That having been said, I love this game to death and I've been known to abstain from Dwarf Therapist until after my fort gets to be about 30+ dwarves. But in all the forts I've made, I have never once referred to one of my dwarves by name. Why? Because Dwarf Therapist doesn't track custom profession names entered from DF, so I re-name all of my dwarves to their profession. And that means that never once in my entire time playing this game have I been sad because Urist husband of Uristina was struck down by a goblin. I have only been sad because Woodcutter/Planter died.

That's a problem.

[Chaos Armor]

I'm not trying to badger but there are shortcut keys like '3' and '9' and '/' '*' that help.

Also one way to help with military is to give them custom professions.

Such as "Urist McExample,  D3"

The D stands for Defense(or dwarf) and the 3 stands for the third squad. So when I see a migrant that I want to put in the military then I use v,z,y,p and type the D3 in to his custom profressions. I've been playing on DF Defense Mod and I have an 8 squad military, it definitely helps to use stuff like this.

Personally I like the interface and see the genius behind it. I like it as it is right now except Toady should change the 'escape' bar back to space bar.

[bombzero]

Also, relatedly, assigning dwarves to military service: There is no way to know if a given dwarf is already part of a squad when choosing whether or not to assign him to your new squad? In what way does that make any fucking sense at all ever?

you know that it says if they are in a squad in the top right of the positions screen of the military page what squad they are in if they are in one right?

anyways, overhauling the labors interface would be a loooong process. people would begin bitching about how long it was taking, then they would bitch about all the new bugs, etc etc etc.
so what sounds easy would be a year long project more than likely. that's IF toady remembered to insert remarks into that part of his code, Armok help him if he didn't.

anyways, fun fact about being a sophisticated computer player rather than a degenerate main-streamer. you will almost always have to download 3rd party software, mods, overhauls, and patches to play the BEST games. but do not be discouraged, in fact be happy, for this is what separates us from the rest of the rabble, we FORCE the game to be fun, whether it wants to be or not.