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[PenguinBuddha]

Look, I'm playing this game and right away I'm amazed at how stupidly simple the controls are. I mean the game only really makes use of 75% of the keyboard. Theres a lot of unused keys. Also using the arrow keys to move the tile cursor is just too easy. This game is meant to be hard! Moving the tile cursor should be done by typing in the X, Y, and Z coordinate you want it to be at. Whats this added mouse use for??? How am I supposed to enjoy the game when I can just draw where I want my dwarves to mine? Is this preschool??? I thought this game was meant to be hard.

I've thought of the ultimate solution. All commands should be typed in binary. Also no more window showing the world, just a string binary bytes. Anybody with any real balls should be able to translate those into their ascii equivalents and know what they're doing. I mean if you wanna cheat you can draw the map on some paper. Sure you'll have to re-draw every second but hey, this game is supposed to be hard.

Whats that? The interface has to be better than what I suggested so that people will actually play the game? Why would we want people unwilling to put the time and effort into learning rapid binary to ascii translation to play the game? I mean with that logic why don't we just add some nice GUI and full mouse support and make this thing so easy to control that anyone can do it? I mean this game is supposed to be hard! And everyone knows a game can't be difficult if the interface isn't difficult.

[NonconsensualSurgery]

I'm gonna wait for the version that's playable on the iPhone.

[Garrette]

I've seen better use of sarcasm. Anyway, the interface isn't the way it is because it's meant to be hard, or to keep certain types of player from enjoying the game. As far as I understand it, it is the way it is because it works, and because the developer would rather spend his time adding in additional content instead. As far as Fortress mode goes, sure it can be hard to learn the UI and it can be counter-intuitive at times, but it's not like you can't pause the game whenever you want and take your time.

Edited for typo.

[PenguinBuddha]

The interface the way it is because it's meant to be hard, or to keep certain types of player from enjoying the game.

This statement is quite the gem. I hope it doesn't represent the mindset of many of the people on these forums, but I'm afraid it might.

[Garrette]

Nope. That was just a convenient type. I honestly don't have much issue with the interface. Yes. It's a pain to learn. It takes all of a couple of hours probably. Would a mouse-driven interface be great. Yes. Most people would probably agree with that. That said, I don't see how the interface could actually make the game harder at all. You can pause whenever you like, hotkeys are fairly clearly labeled, and you just don't need super-quick reaction time to play this game.

[PenguinBuddha]

I think the distinction I was trying to make was between a game being difficult, like super meat boy being insanely hard, and the controls being difficult, like dwarf fortress. The argument I often see is that the controls are difficult because the game is supposed to be hard (which I was mocking), but they are too separate things. Games should always try to optimize the interface. This doesn't make the game easier or harder, it simply makes communication between the player and the game more fluid.

Think of it this way, playing Dwarf fortress is like solving a Rubik's cube while wearing boxing gloves. Your mind may know what it wants to do to the Rubik's cube, but the gloves are making it difficult. Removing the gloves doesn't make the cube any more or less complex, it simply allows the person solving it to more directly control the cube.

I think at the end of the day we agree, but I wish the community as a whole would push for a better interface so it would get done, instead of simply accepting it as it is and looking down on those who would like it to be so.

[Garrette]

Yeah. I think most players of the community generally agree that the interface is the game's weak point. And most, like you and I, probably do wish it was better or would be updated. I remember reading a post by the developer on why the interface wasn't likely to be enhanced any time soon, but I can't remember where I saw it. I think I remember something about the interface not being worked on until he felt the game was actually complete enough to bother with the massive coding it would require, but don't quote me on it. Hopefully a senior member of the community can explain it to you better. I wouldn't say the interface makes DF harder, so much as more frustrating to play, especially in the beginning, or at times you need to do a large amount of actions, such as carving out bedrooms or some such. I think that mindset of the community is more of a joke than anything. I've never really taken it seriously, and the large majority have been very decent and helpful to each other, and especially to new players.

DF is sort of like a hidden gem. There's no other game out there with this much depth and complexity. None even come close. When you read about all of the interactions and relationships happening in the background and during world gen, it's amazing. Even reading through the frontpage, about his work on the new version, it's amazing to see how much depth this game really has and how much is actually going on to make the game as special as it is. Unfortunately the gem is covered in the mud that is the interface. But after awhile, you get used to it and it doesn't really bother you at all.

[PenguinBuddha]

I feel somewhat better now.

[Garrette]

Have you tried any of the utilities while playing? Or any of the graphic sets? I personally can't play without a graphic set and dwarf therapist. Both are included with the lazy newb pack, as well as some other nifty utilities, if you don't already have it.

[PenguinBuddha]

I've got them. I can't seem to get stonesense to work though.

[Garrette]

I remember using it awhile back. It was kinda neat to look at your fortress with the nifty graphics. It's just a visualizer though, I don't think it can actually modify the game in any way. One thing I did forget to mention is that the mouse does work for designation, so that may actually save you a bit of hassle.

[Gatleos]

You're totally right about the UI, but I've never seen anyone around here using the supposed difficulty of the game as an excuse for it. Nor have I ever seen anybody looking down on those who can't get used to it. No, we here at the Bay12 forums look down on everybody equally.

Also, I hope you don't get the impression that the developer is completely ignoring this issue. Toady has acknowledged the UI issues in the past and plans on fixing them; this is an enormously complex game we're talking about here, however, so when he does get around to it it will be quite the project.

Also, your post broke my sarcasmometer. I hope you're happy.

[PenguinBuddha]

I was worried about sarcasm overload. What have I done...

[Starver]

I don't see the problem with the input part of the interface[1].  Unlike a lot of people, I know, and so I count myself as being the odd one.

However, unless you <tab> it away, you get a list of 'master keys' (that you quickly learn), and if you want to (d)esignate something you then get a list of what it is that you can designate to be done, and if you want to (b)uild something, then you get a list of items (or further groupings of items) that you can build...  So if I want to build a construction, namely a wall, then...  Well, it seems to work Ok for me...  Maybe if I typo I'm going to go into the (b)uild a (w)orkshop menu, but that's a problem with any interface, whether it be keyboard driven or mouse-driven (and I believe that mouse-jitter from a bad optical-mouse-to-surface reading is probably a more common thing than having one's keyboard shuffle around uncontrollably while trying to type).


The biggest problem I have is having set up a complicated/convoluted Burrow and then accidentally deleting it when I had not intended the first character of the (d)esignate (d)ig two-stroke command to occur while I was still in the burrow-management screen.  Perhaps a little "are you sure?" prior to such potentially effort-nullifying consequences?  Well, that's the only suggestion for improvement that I have, and even then I know it's not really going to be a panacea.


No, back to the original premise, it is all organised neatly and (with some possibly arguable-either-way exceptions) logically.  The biggest problem for a new player is not even knowing what they can do.  Witness the occasional (but all-too-frequent) question of "how do I change levels?"  Answer: ">" and "<" (among others, like zooming to a creature of interest).  And anyone with a nethack background will of course realise this, but that culture is a bit less prevalent than it might have been a decade ago.  But there's help-screens aplenty from the "?" key.  And though some won't even realise this, I can't think of many ways to make it simpler.  It basically puts everything you need on the screen.  Again, the difficulty lies in not knowing that (frexample) you can assign/change the nickname by going into a dwarf's screen (surprise, surprise), changing to the "z:St" screen (perhaps a bit more obscure... 'St'=='Statistics'?) and then typing the clearly-indicated 'y' for Customise (again, maybe mildly obscure, but worth looking at, when first exploring the game) in order to then press the very clearly indicated "n" for the "Customise Nickname" option.

Minor letter changes aside (or better names for the occasional section, but I deliberately chose one of the more obscure ones, there), I reiterate that I see no problem.  I also reiterate that I know I'm probably not representative, but I'd still consider my POV worth emphasising.

Of all the things I found difficult, when getting into the game, it is not the UI, but the complexity of options that the UI has to end up granting.  These not being problems, but features!  When Toady introduced NewMilitaryInterface in .31, the problems were less (in my mind) to do with the interface and more to do with the whole difference from the original "place a point to which this squad will station themselves", what with the "target an individual" and various other options.

And I hold no brook with the idea that it is supportive of elitism, because everyone does something wrong (whoops, accidental cave-in; whoops, siege at just the wrong time; whoops, migrants not having an entryway; whoops, I really didn't mean to breach that...), but at the same time most of these issues only come to play once the first few hurdles (e.g. succesfully feeding and watering a burgeoning population) have been overcome.  And, regardless, all these problems are a matter of management, not interface.  The interface may indeed facilitate (or, by some people's measure, get in the way of) the management but it's not even as if it's a real-time control[2] that you need to prod away at in a timely fashion...  The game pauses!  Wrong sub-menu of the (b)uilding top-level?  Come back out and go back in again.  Not sure if it's a mechanism or a workshop?  Explore.  You will learn.  We don't expect you to know from scratch, but you can get good at making a good guess even for the more rarely used sub-options...


Way too many words, sorry.  Possibly some being apparently self-contradictory, if you read them in a way I didn't intend, but they were all consistent when they started to leave my brain, so I shall blame my fingers for any such errors.


[1] Nor the output one, but I absolutely realise that my understanding of the ANSI-like/Page-whatever-it-is default tileset images has been honed through practice, and it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[2] Except for the military (s)quad-control one, which is real-time, while navigating it, but still lets you pause it if you want to take your time.

[Stargrasper]

Oh, you think it's bad now...wait twenty years for Toady to finish it...you'll probably need a Space Cadet Keyboard to play it!

More seriously, I can't top Starver.  We know the UI sucks.  The controls are reasonably intuitive, though.  The 'd' key is in fact 'designate', for example.  The real tricky part is that you have to figure out Toad logic to see the intuitiveness sometimes.  Good luck fifteen consecutive miracles.