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Yes I want my dwarves to need to poo all the tons of stuff (s)he eats..once in a while

10 (6.1%)

Yes I want my dwarves to need to have sex without calving like a bunny

17 (10.3%)

Yes I want my dwarves to need to poo AND have impregnation-less sex every now and then.. not necessarily at the same time

41 (24.8%)

Yes I want my dwarves to need to poo AND have impregnation-less sex every now and then.. EVEN at the same time (perversion++)

17 (10.3%)

No I'm ok without 'em EVER pooing AND having sex only ONCE per child

80 (48.5%)

Total Members Voted: 165

Voting closed: February 15, 2012, 06:08:04 pm

[Yoink]

Additionally, I thought it would be prudent to have all my dwarves drink and fish on a river, upstream from where all my animals are chilling out in an effort to keep the dwarves healthy and not drink any water buffalo waste. However, as far as I can tell, that doesn't really matter.

Yeah, I was kinda disappointed when the rotten corpses in the bottom of my well didn't have any effect on the water's quality.
Little things like that would be pretty cool.

[Sus]

I can't think of a single good reason to include sex and/or feces.

This. Unless it could be weaponized.

Beware of its deadly poop!

But in all seriousness, I too would prefer to leave all this stuff under the ever so (mercifully) ambiguous "On Break" labor and the colourful imagination of the player. There's already enough to worry about in keeping the dorfs fed, hydrated (or, preferably, all boozed up) and (relatively) safe without having to go too deep into waste management or spicing up their sex life.
I've always assumed they simply do their, uh, stuff in the refuse stockpile or outdoors.

[KoffeeKup]

Really, I don't think that dwarfs need to have a visible emote above their head saying "Going home to make sweet love with the wife" but I really find the reproduction through spores thing growing old. i find it rediculous that my cats can have kittens while the only tom in the fort is busy exploring the 3 level cavern systems. Maybe just sleeping In the same room/bed? It can be kept completely G rated the entire time its happening and you wouldn't even know till the announcement that a baby is born.

And what the hell is wrong with waste from animals? If Toady is adding sewers, I would like an actual reason for them to be there. If there is no sewage, why are the sewers there? And why not add basic sanitation needs? Some of the worst epidemics in history happened because of improper handling of human waste. Roman and Greek civilization was hailed as amazingly advanced because of the public amenities and sewers leading to a decrease in infectious disease.

Everyone needs to shit. Everyone needs to take a piss. Can we actually be adult about this and have a game with realistic civic requirements other than just housing and agriculture? I just find it incredible that we are willingly play games with death, dismemberment, gratuitous amounts of vomit, blood splatters and gangrenous flesh wounds but when it comes to something that we have dealt with since the day we were born we can't seem to stomach it.

[G-Flex]

Everyone needs to shit. Everyone needs to take a piss. Can we actually be adult about this and have a game with realistic civic requirements other than just housing and agriculture?

If you'll look at this thread or any other thread about this, you'll see that that is the problem: Evidently, we can't.

[KoffeeKup]

Everyone needs to shit. Everyone needs to take a piss. Can we actually be adult about this and have a game with realistic civic requirements other than just housing and agriculture?

If you'll look at this thread or any other thread about this, you'll see that that is the problem: Evidently, we can't.

True. Anytime I find a thread like this I feel like I'm in preschool again and some one made a poo joke. All the girls are going "Eww!" in the corner and the boys are talking about throwing it at someone.

Edit: Crunched some numbers, and right now more people would prefer a better "basic needs" system rather then none at all, although it is nearly 50/50.

[G-Flex]

I would rather nobody treat this thread's poll as even remotely indicative of anything. It doesn't take a student of statistical analysis to tell that it's not exactly the most scientifically valid poll in existence.

First off, it's not a poll of "people". It's a poll of "people, active on these forums, who were interested in this thread, and felt like responding to a rather silly poll". The fact that it has what amount to at least one joke answer does not help (and yes, choice in responses to present does have an important impact on polling).

I can't believe I have to say that, but then again, I can't believe anybody would take that poll seriously.

[Silverionmox]

If you'll look at this thread or any other thread about this, you'll see that that is the problem: Evidently, we can't.

That didn't make Toady put an [INVULNERABLE] tag on innocent civilians or peaceful mermaids.

I can't believe I have to say that, but then again, I can't believe anybody would take that poll seriously.

Certainly not on its own, but it seems to illustrate the stalemate between the two sides of the debate well.

[irmo]

That didn't make Toady put an [INVULNERABLE] tag on innocent civilians or peaceful mermaids.

He also didn't implement specific mermaid-killing mechanics. The players had to figure that out on their own.

Honestly, I don't like this idea specifically because it has already moved this forum one step closer to literally being a cesspool. The mouth-breathing droogs already have drunkenness, gladiator fights, abuse of elves, and !!MAGMA!!, and I'd rather not put one more object in their enclosure for them to play with.

[Neonivek]

Oddly enough I wasn't under the impression that Dwarves didn't have sex out of a conscious choice of Toady. Just a choice to not slow the game down on it just yet.

[Silverionmox]

That didn't make Toady put an [INVULNERABLE] tag on innocent civilians or peaceful mermaids.

He also didn't implement specific mermaid-killing mechanics. The players had to figure that out on their own.

He won't put in poo-flinging antics either.

Honestly, I don't like this idea specifically because it has already moved this forum one step closer to literally being a cesspool. The mouth-breathing droogs already have drunkenness, gladiator fights, abuse of elves, and !!MAGMA!!, and I'd rather not put one more object in their enclosure for them to play with.

I sympathize, but we can't let the growth of the game be stunted by the tasteless minority. We should consider to get rid of the vomit encrustation before considering leaving out essential economic cycles and desires that drive the plot of 95% of movies.

[bombzero]

That didn't make Toady put an [INVULNERABLE] tag on innocent civilians or peaceful mermaids.

He also didn't implement specific mermaid-killing mechanics. The players had to figure that out on their own.

He won't put in poo-flinging antics either.

Honestly, I don't like this idea specifically because it has already moved this forum one step closer to literally being a cesspool. The mouth-breathing droogs already have drunkenness, gladiator fights, abuse of elves, and !!MAGMA!!, and I'd rather not put one more object in their enclosure for them to play with.

I sympathize, but we can't let the growth of the game be stunted by the tasteless minority. We should consider to get rid of the vomit encrustation before considering leaving out essential economic cycles and desires that drive the plot of 95% of movies.

im quite glad to see a sensible 'for' argument here, i think the primary issue is a combination of what i posted earlier about it becoming an overwhelming feature that takes away from others, and FPS.

and about your comment about the apparent 5 year old's being the 'tasteless minority', yes, they are. but the more stuff you add for them to giggle about, the greater the 'minority' becomes.

so in a moderate fashion, these features would be great, basic dwarf waste management could be a neat side note but consider possible not so neat side effects.

now reproduction by proximity does not seem bad, it would mean no job cancellations that could mildly disturb some squeamish people, but keep true simulationists happy.
it would also make controlling animal breeding a more involved process, and keep things much more Fun and fun.

my only real concern with the shit and piss is it becoming an overarching point of the game, where in the name of entertainment it would need to be quite minor.


the way this thread itself was presented, the OP, the poll, and everything else (all the other threads on it are remarkably similar).
kinda killed any chance for intelligent discussion on positives and negatives of the mentioned features.

[orius]

Everyone needs to shit. Everyone needs to take a piss. Can we actually be adult about this and have a game with realistic civic requirements other than just housing and agriculture?

If you'll look at this thread or any other thread about this, you'll see that that is the problem: Evidently, we can't.

True. Anytime I find a thread like this I feel like I'm in preschool again and some one made a poo joke. All the girls are going "Eww!" in the corner and the boys are talking about throwing it at someone.

That's how I feel.  If the stuff's going to be added, it needs to actually have an important effect on the game, and not reflect an adolescent fascination with body functions.

Excretion should be about sanitation management and hygene if implemented.  Dwarves and pets generate waste and it needs be removed to keep the fort healthy.  Getting rid of it presents a logistical challenge.  Do you just dump it into the river?  That should realistically impact your water supply negatively.  Or do you pour it down into the caverns?  That might also affect your water if you need to get it from the caverns.  Will it piss off the elves?  How does it effect civilizations downstream?  Does it pollute lakes and oceans?  Then there's animals.  You got to keep the animal pens mucked out if they're kept inside.  Some animal manure can be used as fertilizer, but not all types of manure are safe to use for agriculture.  How do you deal with caged animals, particularly the cages where you have a hundred animals growing to adulthood?  And how much trouble does this present to a new fort?  Setting up an Absurdly Spacious Sewer is fine when you're self-sufficient, but it adds yet another thing to do when you're starting out and have limited labor.  There's also security concerns, do you really want the crundles to slip into your fort through the shitters?  I wouldn't.

The most important aspects of sex in the fortress is already implemented, procreation and animal breeding.  There's also some degree of genetics involved.  Anything else is extraneous.  Now having things like infidelity might not be an unreasonable addition, since it will affect dwarf moods, but honestly there's a lot of other things in the game that I'd rather see worked on first.  Things like orgies, fetishes,  or more graphic descriptions of sex are unnecessary given then nature of the game, you don't want something else to get the dwarves idling, and if I wanted this I'd go play a porn game or something.

Then keep in mind Toady would have to code all this crap (pun intended!).  It is more important for this stuff to be added (would could realistically take months), or to have some long-standing bugs fixed?  I'll take the bug fixes.  How much other content would have to be put on hold to put this stuff in as well?  As things are now, I don't have a problem with this stuff lacking, because it's still a reasonable suspension of disbelief.

[bombzero]

This is a quite valid explanation.

it would distract from the overall entertainment value, take many months to code, and probably degrade the community as badly as if DF went mainstream.

while at first glance, adding shit, sex, waste management, and more to the game SEEM great. DF is and will be for quite some time, an Alpha.
would you rather have better military, a logical method for handling stone dumping, and rebalancing of the flawed features that make the game 'too easy' to some. (mods anyone?) a better way to manage your dwarfs professions, a refinement of the way that war, diplomacy, advanced mechanics, defence, economy, the noble system, and world simulation.

...

or tedious, time consuming waste management.
(basically what orius said.)

[KoffeeKup]

I don't really care when or if any of this gets added, but at some point I think it is reasonable that 2 dwarfs sit in the same room alone for a few frames to have a child. I have played forts where the husband and wife never saw each other and they had 3 children, one right after the other. If you wonder why, one was a miner and one was in the military and it was through simple chance that they ended up sitting at the table together for 2 months.
Not really that important to me now but "reproduction by spores" is just absolutely stupid. Its the kind of thing a toddler gets told to shut them up if they ask "Where do babies come from?"

I have played forts where I locked everyone in the kitchen/food storage for months trying to keep them alive with no other adverse effects other than a sore back and the eventual starvation and dehydration. If this is a survival game there needs to be a form of sanitation other than "cleaned them self recently". That doesn't even do much most of the time.

Sanitation is a serious concern in any situation. If defecating in the woods you need to be 200 feet from a water source  to make sure you don't contaminate and pollute the water. The city of London had terrible cholera outbreaks resulting in the deaths of thousands. It spreads from eating the waste of an infected person. It really is something that should be added if it is added responsibly although later on.

I am sure that if Toady added anything he would do it with a minimal amount of disgusting detail. I will say that it doesn't need to be added above all other things. It should be on the bottom of the list.   

[ravaught]

Hrmm.. I am not one to get the giggly fits over poo jokes or to turn all rosy cheeked when some says sex, so, I personally do not see anything wrong with adding them.

In true DF style, I can even see how it could not only add ambiance, but also could have practical application. For example, why not implement compost "piles". It could either be constructed or simple a pile that would create miasma if stored inside, but would create usable fertilizer if stored outside for some designated period of time. I also think that outhouses or some other form of early game sanitation facilities would be useful as a means to prevent players from immediately holing up inside their fort. The miasma factor could also be implemented on animals cages and indoor pens/pits if they were not periodically cleaned. For animals, if could be as simple as having someone with the animal caretaker job spend a few frames at the pen/cage and then run to make a deposit in the 'pile'. I would also like to see this implemented with plant/food waste as well.

Historically, feces was also dried into bricks and used for burning. It could be used for pottery kilns or something in place of other resources on maps that do not have access to coal or have limited amounts of wood as in desert environs. There could even be unhappy thoughts if it is burned or larger amounts required as a trade off for having access to a cheap fuel source.

The sex issue I am less concerned about one way or the other. Although, to be fair, it WOULD be kind of cool to at least see Dwarves that are in a relationship spend a bit more time in the same room. Nothing like seeing to people in a relationship that never are in the same part of the fort... O_o