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[IronyOwl]

GlyphGryph:

Yes, because I've been sitting on my ass and clearly not posting at all. If you think I've been acting scummy, come out and say it. If you think it's poor town play, tell me what exactly I should be doing instead - right now, PM and Tiruin look like scum to me, and neither of them have responded to my posts directed against them. I suppose that, yes, I could ignore them and go after someone else. Come tonight, when I'm not at work, I probably will. But I don't intend on forgetting about him. I don't want him to think he can slip away.

You've been posting defensively, but doing little actual scumhunting. You've just admitted as much, since you claim your suspects are ignoring you and thus you can't do anything about them.

I do think you've been acting scummy. A lot of defensive posts while using waiting on someone's responses as an excuse to not do anything productive is scummy. It implies you're concerned with defense, but more interested in being able to say you're trying to scumhunt than actually making any progress.

If your suspects are posting but ignoring you, proper town play is to harass them about it until they respond or everyone else notices that they're ignoring you and thus obviously scum. If they're not posting at all, "ignoring" them to go after someone else requires literally zero effort, because there's literally nothing to ignore.

Because he's the only one who made a panicked sounding defensive rant to accusations and took the opportunity to disappear as soon as other people started declaring him town? Is there someone that's been lurking /more/ than he has since day 1?

Then why aren't you mentioning that every post instead of just the lurking?

Haven't heard much from Otto, Think, or McArathos. I haven't been paying enough attention to know if they're lurking more or less.

And frankly, the lack of posts in general fucking pisses me off - if I could half the people here for lurking I would...

Why can't you?


Think, you're lurking scum. Get in here and tell me what you think of Orangebottle.


See? Probably won't go anywhere, but not hard to do.

[Orangebottle]

You seem to explain everything except why you think PM is town.
So, why?

Gut+Meta.

So yeah.

I didn't even know PM had a meta. What is his meta, again?

[Leafsnail]

I'm telling everyone else it's for pressure.

I want an answer to my question and until he does, I will vote for him, even if this takes me through the end of the day.

His freakout has gotten me suspicious, so even if I don't get an answer to my question I won't be too sorrowful about it.

Ok - guess I misread what you meant by pressure.  As long as you're prepared to lynch someone for noncompliance the pressure is maintained.

I liked your attack on Otto, though. It had a clear goal beyond bandwagoning an easy target, and wasn't accompanied by a halfassed excuse for why it was super important for you personally to do this.

This also makes sense.  Speaking of which, Ottofar seems to be not making sense again.

@Leafsnail: You got my question wrong, I am not rolefishing. Just making sure that the 'commando' meant town and 'ninja' meant scum. Nothing more, nothing less. I was just wondering if the flavor had any effect.

But... you should know that commandos are town from your role.  And that ninjas are scum from the OP.  I can't see any way you could be confused about this unless you're scum (even then it's weird) or a third party.

My plan? Part of which is to get everyone talking, which only some are doing. Most of which I've already said in my past posts.

Copout?  Yeah, it's a copout.  Why couldn't you say this earlier?

@IronyOwl, Leafsnail and Urist I.: What is up with my stating of a plan that got you all caught up on it? Why would you want me explaining it-- to save me from the lynch because it may seem like a last-ditch opportunity? That is how I interpreted your statements about it.

I was wondering what plan would possibly benefit from you saying you had a plan but not revealing it.  Other than "bluff by saying I have a plan and hope they stop questioning me".

I'm not nervous or afraid. I'm not afraid of the lynch nor am I any role that would benefit of such. If any of you expect me to back away because of fear, well, I'm proving that wrong.

WIFOOOOM.  Actively instigating it yourself is pretty bad.  Almost as if you're thinking about it from scum perspective.

The rest of that post is just... argh.  Bad.  Scummy.  Bad.

Powder Miner: You have till the currently scheduled end of the day to post and explain your absence in spite of activity elsewhere and your current suspicions or I'll go into full Lynch All Lurkers mode on you tomorrow.  Seriously, you can't just opt out of being suspected day one.

[Powder Miner]

Yes, I've been active on the other two Forum Games boards. The reason I haven't been posting in Mafia is because I didn't want to play Mafia- I was working on a serious homework project I already had late, and I didn't have the motivation or time to post large Mafia posts. No, GryphGlyph, I haven't decided to lurk all of my games and break the rule of playing to win just for you. I had real life reasons.
Getting to your posts in a second.

[Powder Miner]

That did nothing except make scrolling to quote it annoying. I already told you I'm going to scumhunt. That's not what the approach is about. Approach, not "are you going to scumhunt idiotic obvious question durr hurr"

Then do some fucking hunting. Lets be honest here - you've done nothing since this game started but freak out because I asked you a few questions and made a few accusations of suspicious behaviour. As far as I'm concerned at this point, you're scum - but I'll need a bit more evidence before I'm likely to convince anyone of it.

So if you ARE town, do me a favour and make it more difficult by actually doing some goddamn hunting. Got it?

Let's be honest here- I'd only had 3 or four posts and when I did RVS webadict you went and raged on me for it. Although webadict does need to answer.
Also how did I freak out? Making accusations of suspicious behavior and asking you questions is scumhunting anyway.

[Powder Miner]

Also, Gryph: Your only thing on me is lurking, yet you'll notice I haven't posted in any of my three games. Why would I lurk three games just for you? Do you have any other argument besides that? Because it look to me like you're just trying to look for a single point you think you can beat on me with, but you don't appear to have thought it through very well. In one of your earlier posts, you were raging on my RVS because I hadn't voted webadict for other reasons. If you found them so scummy, why weren't you doing anything about it yourself?

Ottofar: Huh, please tell me my meta. I'd like to know what I do when I play. And why are you buddying me?

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Urist Imiknorris:
Orangebottle:
Powder Miner: GlyphGryph,
Think0028:
Jim Groovester:
Ottofar: Tiruin, Urist_McArathos,
Dariush:
GlyphGryph: Dariush, Jim Groovester,
Urist_McArathos: IronyOwl,
Tiruin: Urist Imiknorris, Leafsnail, webadict,
webadict: Powder Miner,
IronyOwl:
Leafsnail:

Not Voting: Think0028, Ottofar, Orangebottle,

Day 1 will end Tuesday 1-31 at 11 PM EST.

[Urist_McArathos]

McArathos. Why are you giving yourself an excuse to vote Ottofar for lurking here? "Oh, I don't know his meta, so I'm just really gonna have to vote him until he does something." No questions to him, no questions to anyone else, just an easy bandwagon vote with a personal excuse to why your vote's more justified than anyone else's.

It's a policy vote; I don't have questions for a lurker, I want him to appear and generate some content.  There were plenty of questions waiting for him as is, and lots of actions to weigh in on to boot.  He's since showed up, and provided some way of gauging his behavior; mission accomplished.  Also,

McArathos. Why are you giving yourself an excuse to vote Ottofar for lurking here? "Oh, I don't know his meta, so I'm just really gonna have to vote him until he does something." No questions to him, no questions to anyone else, just an easy bandwagon vote with a personal excuse to why your vote's more justified than anyone else's.

Hey now.  If you're going to criticise someone for attacking lurkers, you should be attacking me, who suggested going after them aggressively.  But I guess I seem like a scarier target than McArathos, huh?  You wouldn't just be able to put a vote on me and forget about it in the same way as you might with McArathos.

I liked your attack on Otto, though. It had a clear goal beyond bandwagoning an easy target, and wasn't accompanied by a halfassed excuse for why it was super important for you personally to do this.

I believe he asked me about how I felt about Lynch All Lurkers before outlining his own feelings on it, and I made it very clear why.  I don't see how you can accuse me of half-assed excuses when I had spelled out specifically why I felt it was important in this game.  You don't like that I said I don't know Ottofar's meta?  Well, I don't know what else you'd want me to say.  I don't know his style, so I need as much as possible to read him, otherwise my scumhunting him will do fuck-all for town if he's allowed to lurk and I can't home in on his minor cracks.  Do you really think I shouldn't be more worried about a lurker that I can't read that well in the first place?

GlyphGrpyh:

What poor scumhunting.

<sarcasm>

So, your response to Webadict's snide dickery is to be a bigger snide dick instead of, say, pointing out the blindingly obvious that active lurking = bad (or literally anything more useful than resorting to petty rudeness)?

Imiknorris:

Speaking of which, Everyone not voting Tiruin: Why aren't you?

Because I'm not convinced; Tiriun may be OMGOBVSCUM to you, but there are other suspects out there, and it's hardly as clear-cut from here.

To summarize:

Tiriun: definitely suspect; I'm really not liking how he got in the middle of the argument between GG and PM nor the reasoning he gave to Jim for doing so (noticeably the chunk of WIFOM that "Scum wouldn't do this to bus each other"), followed up by saying nothing would be gained except  for a shift in thought in the other's scumminess (otherwise known as the entire point of questioning).  This whole "plan" business seems suspect, but nothing from this is solid enough to lynch on the spot, is it?

GG: Hyper-aggressive at first, tunneling PM for a while (including the rarrgh stop lurking from a bit ago), and his snide sniping with Webadict as well all rub me the wrong way in terms of town-play, but both could be easily explained away (tunneling can be done by a determined townie after scum, and Wuba is good at pushing people's buttons).  Again, not enough for a certain vote.

Webadict: It's always hard to tell if Webadict is scum or not, and his meta of "I'm Webadict the un-fucking-touchable" doesn't help.  He's fearless as town or scum, so that's sort of a null tell.  His opening vote on GG, and his blatant "I have no reason, deal" set off alarms (despite the fact this seems like classic Webadict, WIFOM in my head!).  He snipes at GG for a while, then leaps onto Tiriun shortly after what he claims was a post full of passive attacks (I don't agree it was that bad, and wonder if he really believes it or not).

So, I don't know what game you're playing where everyone else is solid enough town that Tiriun sticks out like a sore thumb, but I'm sure as shit not in it.  Considering my vote at this point could be a tie-making vote, I'm hesitant to cast it while it's so foggy to me.

Unvote for the moment, assuming Ottofar continues to be productive.

[webadict]

Webadict: It's always hard to tell if Webadict is scum or not, and his meta of "I'm Webadict the un-fucking-touchable" doesn't help.  He's fearless as town or scum, so that's sort of a null tell.  His opening vote on GG, and his blatant "I have no reason, deal" set off alarms (despite the fact this seems like classic Webadict, WIFOM in my head!).  He snipes at GG for a while, then leaps onto Tiriun shortly after what he claims was a post full of passive attacks (I don't agree it was that bad, and wonder if he really believes it or not).

So, I don't know what game you're playing where everyone else is solid enough town that Tiriun sticks out like a sore thumb, but I'm sure as shit not in it.  Considering my vote at this point could be a tie-making vote, I'm hesitant to cast it while it's so foggy to me.

Are you serious? Did you see that post of his?

He's totally scum!

I'm not sure why everyone else doesn't find that strange.

Here he's attempting to deflect onto Orangebottle without doing so himself. It's a passive attack that really isn't scumhunting or anything but a way to make people look the other way.

Think0028: Lurking?

Passive.

Does it makes me seem like scum because I'm following my intuition when many are being vague themselves? (Other than the scum know town thing).

Deflection with no evidence.

He also states that he's not afraid to be lynched in a way I was unimpressed by. If he's not afraid and not trying to get people to stop him, why keep him alive?

[Tiruin]

Wow, now my plan is working.

Precluding the fact that I am scum.

@IronyOwl (and all the rest who wonder): The lack of explanation for my plan was not because I couldn't explain myself, but it was all right there in between the lines. I need information as I can't get a solid read on anyone, I admit I screwed up in my wordings before, and very badly, but look now what it got: answers. Who is generally keeping an eye out for scum and who is just lazy to do what must be done. Do I need to go in-detail for that to save my own skin? I think not.

Also, I'm really confused why you all would rely on my explanation of a plan for your voting basis, the main goal is to lynch scum. I'm not afraid to answer questions, yet some of those who ask look at it as a scapegoat.

Well, we now have activity.

I'm not nervous or afraid. I'm not afraid of the lynch nor am I any role that would benefit of such. If any of you expect me to back away because of fear, well, I'm proving that wrong.

WIFOOOOM.  Actively instigating it yourself is pretty bad.  Almost as if you're thinking about it from scum perspective.

The rest of that post is just... argh.  Bad.  Scummy.  Bad.

Yeah, WIFOM? Maybe you should look at it from all perspectives before you give it that. A closed mind towards whatever I say would end up like this. There are other scum there, and from where I see it, they are hiding behind all those votes on me.

Orangebottle: You claim town, just like that. When you attack me, you do it with a hand-wave that everything I said is WIFOM. My actions really do make me seem scummy, and I admit it partly due to my style of perspective, but those got answers from mostly everyone. All you did was hop on the thought train and rely on your claim as a shield as nobody is questioning you.

Well, let's make use of my limited time then. If you are scumhunting, well, you have me. What about the rest? Keeping quiet there and offering short answers? Why aren't you voting me?

GryphGlyph: Sometimes, I confuse my intuition with my own thoughts. I've been trying to think of you as town from then on, but your posts have the wrong feeling on it. You attacked PM with a RVS vote and kept attacking every little detail of his posts. Then on to me, just to keep on the heat?

There are scum out there, your targeting is real awry when you do hunt. From PM then me, anything new there other than the general consensus on who you think is scum?

Urist Imiknorris: I'm not going to counter anything you said, you're doing a very good job of hunting and with aggression, but it is on the wrong person. What is the difference of a secret plan that isn't typed down and one that is? Nothing except for the fact that it was stated.

PPE (Urist McA and web): By reason of my intervention between GG and PM, what is wrong there? They were biting and snipping on all tiny details of their posts, most of which were counterproductive to scumhunting-- by reason of seeing every error in each other.

@webadict: I'm not here to impress anyone with my words-- in finding scum and what they say, that is where I stand. What exactly gets your attention that I am scum? I'm getting no read on you but the shift between 'I vote you because of being passive/aggressive!'. You aren't giving any extra details why.

[Orangebottle]

When you attack me, you do it with a hand-wave that everything I said is WIFOM.

I don't remember attacking you. I do remember defending myself from your attack.

My actions really do make me seem scummy, and I admit it partly due to my style of perspective, but those got answers from mostly everyone. All you did was hop on the thought train and rely on your claim as a shield as nobody is questioning you.

I'm not on a train.
Who am I voting for?

Well, let's make use of my limited time then. If you are scumhunting, well, you have me. What about the rest? Keeping quiet there and offering short answers? Why aren't you voting me?

Oh, that's right. Nobody. Perhaps I should fix that. I'm not voting for you because I'd rather use my vote for pressure now, then switch it back when we get closer to the end of the day. Here's another reason: you remind me of myself. Fuck up once, and it all goes in a downwards spiral from there.

I do remember asking Ottofar some question that I wanted answered, 'cause he was vague as far as his reasons for thinking PM is town.

How is it that you've managed to accuse me of both bandwagoning and not voting in the same post?

Anyway, I've been asking questions in an attempt to hunt. I feel like this game's gotten the shaft, cause I'm in two other games and I have real life to worry about. I'll try to give this one a good readthrough tonight.

[Orangebottle]

Leafsnail:You said a while back that you'd use today to make sure that people don't lurk in future days. It sounded wonderful. What happened to that?


GlyphGryph is where my vote will be when the day ends. His initial shorten still bothers me, as does the post where he quoted Dakarian's Scumhunting bible. He seems to be scrounging around for any reason to vote PM. That sort of extreme tunneling is unacceptable.

Jim: You said something that sounded...off. Way back in RVS.

I'm really wondering how requesting a shorten means he wants to get to the night sooner because he is scum.

Wouldn't the scum get a huge advantage from speeding us through a day or two? At worst, that's four town dead and very little information.

[Jim Groovester]

I'm not entirely sure what part of the post you would consider a "freak out", though - it obviously reads much different for you than it does for me.

Would you agree that there's a dramatic shift in tone on your part between this post, and the post in question?

Because the jump from comparatively calm and collected to horribly angry and belligerent and defensive is a pretty stark transition, and one I would definitely call a freak out.

Are you really going to tell me that that was a deliberate move solely for pressure? Because that's a little unbelievable.

Because he's the only one who made a panicked sounding defensive rant to accusations and took the opportunity to disappear as soon as other people started declaring him town?

Who's been saying he's town and where?

Urist Imiknorris: I'm not going to counter anything you said, you're doing a very good job of hunting and with aggression, but it is on the wrong person. What is the difference of a secret plan that isn't typed down and one that is? Nothing except for the fact that it was stated.

Buddying your attacker? Claiming the attacks are misdirected, without significant explanation why?

It's like you have no idea what you're doing.

But you're still scum.

Jim: You said something that sounded...off. Way back in RVS.

I'm really wondering how requesting a shorten means he wants to get to the night sooner because he is scum.

Wouldn't the scum get a huge advantage from speeding us through a day or two? At worst, that's four town dead and very little information.

I'll grant you that it's not a very good question. I had a problem with Tiruin's vote on GlyphGryph for the shorten, but couldn't express exactly what it was about it that bugged me. It's one of those things that's so obviously wrong but the logic of it is still difficult to counter.

Arguably, yes, scum would get a huge advantage by speeding through a few days. Is it something that's ever going to happen? No, for several different reasons that don't need significant outlining.

Therefore GlyphGryph didn't shorten because he was scum, but for some other reason (i.e., his post in the Games Threshold Discussion thread), and I wanted to get at why Tiruin thought it was because GlyphGryph was scum. It occurs to me now Tiruin's answer that he was thinking of not just scum but power roles in general was rolefishy.

I'm getting answers out of GlyphGryph, and I can't say they're satisfactory, but I'm going to go ahead and unvote him and vote for Tiruin, because he is scum.

[Think0028]

Tiruin: Busy weekend.

Urist_McA: Fair enough. I'd probably do something similar.

IronyOwl: Like I said to Tiruin, busy weekend and Monday. As for Orangebottle, I'm awfully curious why he declared that he's going to be voting GlyphGryph without actually voting GlyphGryph. In addition, he's been kind of lazy about a few things, namely his interrogation of Otto (voting him without a reemphasis of his question seems a little like 'oh, I guess I should vote' and not 'this is what I'm planning with my vote.') Thus, I am now going to vote him.

Orangebottle: Mind explaining why you aren't voting GlyphGryph and why you aren't being more active with Ottofar?

[IronyOwl]

McArathos:

It's a policy vote; I don't have questions for a lurker, I want him to appear and generate some content.  There were plenty of questions waiting for him as is, and lots of actions to weigh in on to boot.  He's since showed up, and provided some way of gauging his behavior; mission accomplished.  Also,

So you're super-concerned about a lurker, concerned enough to use your vote on him, but you don't really care what he does or have any intention of hunting him specifically; you just want him to post something, anything at all, and then you'll take your vote off.

Why? What does this accomplish? Do you need to get a read on him or not?

None of this explains why you weren't doing much else at that point either. Unless we assume you were scum looking for an easy vote to ride, in which case it all makes perfect sense.

I believe he asked me about how I felt about Lynch All Lurkers before outlining his own feelings on it, and I made it very clear why.  I don't see how you can accuse me of half-assed excuses when I had spelled out specifically why I felt it was important in this game.

I can accuse you of half-assed excuses because you used a half-assed excuse that doesn't add up with the rest of your actions. If you really cared about reading Ottofar, you'd probably have asked him some questions or something. You didn't. If you were concerned by your lack of meta knowledge, you'd probably be concerned about everyone you're not familiar with. You're not. If you really cared about lurkers, you'd probably be going after more than one and making it clear that they wouldn't be tolerated. You aren't.

You don't like that I said I don't know Ottofar's meta?  Well, I don't know what else you'd want me to say.  I don't know his style, so I need as much as possible to read him, otherwise my scumhunting him will do fuck-all for town if he's allowed to lurk and I can't home in on his minor cracks.  Do you really think I shouldn't be more worried about a lurker that I can't read that well in the first place?

This is entirely and completely at odds with your earlier statement (and actions) that you didn't have any questions for him, you just wanted him to provide something. If you're worried about him, and worried about reading him, and worried about being able to hunt him, why aren't you hunting him?

Unvote for the moment, assuming Ottofar continues to be productive.

And no new vote because...? No questioning of 2/3 of your suspects because...?




Tiruin:

Precluding the fact that I am scum.

Huh?

@IronyOwl (and all the rest who wonder): The lack of explanation for my plan was not because I couldn't explain myself, but it was all right there in between the lines.

That's not what you said earlier:

@Urist I.: I do remember who I'm questioning, Orangebottle. I'm just not giving other reasons on why I said I'm waiting as it may tip off the scum to my plan.

Why are you lying to us?

I need information as I can't get a solid read on anyone, I admit I screwed up in my wordings before, and very badly, but look now what it got: answers. Who is generally keeping an eye out for scum and who is just lazy to do what must be done. Do I need to go in-detail for that to save my own skin? I think not.

Also, I'm really confused why you all would rely on my explanation of a plan for your voting basis, the main goal is to lynch scum. I'm not afraid to answer questions, yet some of those who ask look at it as a scapegoat.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, so I'm going to assume I was unclear:

You said you couldn't explain yourself, because that would tip the scumteam off to what you were doing. This means that when you're done with what you're doing, and thus there's no more danger of the scumteam figuring it out, you're going to explain it to us. If the explanation is really good, it'll make sense that you couldn't explain yourself earlier without spoiling your efforts. If it's not really good, it'll make sense that you're stonewalling scum.

Or, to put that another way, you're going to tell me your plan once you're done with it. If it's a decent plan that would be ruined by explaining it, then it'll make sense that you did that. If not, I'm going to lynch you for being lying, stalling scum.

Is there anything about this that is unclear? I would be happy to explain it further, because it's not a plan that's ruined by telling everyone about it ahead of time.