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[Darvi]

I'm pretty damn sure I agreed.

Nothing keeping you from fakeclaiming so far, as far as I can see.

Not everybody's actions will be predetermined, though.

Only some of them, like those that keep the one-shotters from haphazardly killing anybody.

E.G. Player A is a killer, Player B can block. We tell them to target each other. It is in Player A's best interest to target Player B, because if Player B because if Player B doesn't uphold his side of the bargain, he must be scum and deserves to die for it. And it is in Player B's best interest to target player A because, duh.

There are some situations where it doesn't work as planned, such as both of them being scum, but that is actually good for us because they couldn't just not block A and have him kill somebody becasue that would be found out easily, resulting in both of them being lynched.

Hey, so, we should lynch Darvi for being a lying jerk.

While ignoring people have been purposefully been ignoring the game, dodging questions and lurking the day away.

With reasons you have no proof for other than wine. Sure.

[webadict]

Hey, so, we should lynch Darvi for being a lying jerk.

While ignoring people have been purposefully been ignoring the game, dodging questions and lurking the day away.

With reasons you have no proof for other than wine. Sure.

Well, no, not entirely. Lynching survivors is a totally valid reason by itself, but the fact that you were and still currently ARE lying should be enough. Not only that, but explain how a survivor would live with no abilities in a game with 3 one-shot killers and a mafiakill? Hope for a protect?

You claim that my reasoning is WIFOM, but let's think about this logically. What I'm using right now is deduction. I'm taking basic premises and basing my conclusion only on these premises.

Everyone else has 3 abilities, an auto, an action, and a one-shot. Therefore, it is logical that you do as well and are lying. That is 12 people that are the same in a game with 13 people, so what are the chances of the 13th player being different? Not nearly high enough to take the chance.
You have claimed survivor. Therefore, it is logical that you should have abilities fitting a survivor such as revival, hiding, etc.
You claimed a pro-scum role. Therefore, as you are basically one step closer to lylo, lynching you should be imperative. Not only that, but since this is Day 1, you are a perfect player to lynch. You have no claimed actions, and you are a survivor.
You have claimed an ability that states you do nothing. Therefore, it is illogical, as the removal of that ability would show the exact same thing. Not only that, but BYORs are role-heavy, meaning everyone should have at least one action. This can be shown again by deduction, as every BYOR that has ever run had every player with an action.

So, the best reasons to lynch you are:
1. You're a CLAIMED survivor with no actions. This is indisputable.
2. You are CLAIMED to be incredibly different from every other player. This is indisputable.
3. You have previously lied to the town. This is indisputable.
4. You haven't taken any care to disprove my theories other than that the basis is on deduction rather than induction. This does not show that the conclusion is false. This shows that the conclusion COULD be false. However, it is EXTREMELY LIKELY TO BE TRUE. This is only slightly disputable.
5. You have FoOMGUSed me for suspecting you. That's a combination FoS OMGUS. This is only slightly disputable.

Explain these away, idiot.
All of my "WIFOM" theories go in to show HOW these are suspicious. They do not remove these reasons.

Also, I think you made an error in whatever it was you were saying.

I was never lurking.
Questions I've dodged were either questions that I preferred not to answer at that time (or said previously I was doing as such) or questions I missed. If you can find said missed questions, I'll gladly answer them. If they're ones I'm not answering, then I'll tell you that, too.
And that first point... isn't a point.

[Dariush]

That's the point. If a killer is scum, we can keep them from using it in an anti-town manner, namely by using it on people that the town wants to die.

And guess why the scum will follow through with the kill? Because they knew the target is town. Otherwise, they can just claim being blocked or shit.

If their kill isn't a one-shot, then they either are town (unlikely because lying) or a SK, which can be easily found out. Because a dual-kill mafia is OP (RL 2 much?)

Who said anything about dual-kill? The normal mafiakill is enough.

To all of you opposing the N1-kill plan: How about a compromise. We either only use one kill tonight, per night, until N3. Or we do the plan, but on N2.

I still don't like this plan, but what the fuck. Let's go with the first variant lest we waste some vigkills. And I'll use my night action to make sure the killers don't fuck around. Count me in. But OB still hangs because one-shot or not he's a scummy asshole.

[webadict]

But OB still hangs because one-shot or not he's a scummy asshole.

Nah. I kinda like him living. He cannot possibly lie about his action tonight. And we have better targets.

[Darvi]

Everyone else has 3 abilities, an auto, an action, and a one-shot. Therefore, it is logical that you do as well and are lying. That is 12 people that are the same in a game with 13 people, so what are the chances of the 13th player being different? Not nearly high enough to take the chance.

This. Is exactly the kind of WIFOM that I am talking about. Also, read this.

You have claimed survivor. Therefore, it is logical that you should have abilities fitting a survivor such as revival, hiding, etc.

I think a resurrect would be kind of a pro-survivor ability, no? Except there's no way of finding that out until I die and I'd really rather not have that.

You claimed a pro-scum role. Therefore, as you are basically one step closer to lylo, lynching you should be imperative. Not only that, but since this is Day 1, you are a perfect player to lynch. You have no claimed actions, and you are a survivor.

Lies and slander. I have not claimed a pro-scum role. It is also in my interest to be pro-town until lylo because it is way harder to not only find out who's scum, but to also build a case on people who I think are town, and not get called out on it.

You have claimed an ability that states you do nothing. Therefore, it is illogical, as the removal of that ability would show the exact same thing. Not only that, but BYORs are role-heavy, meaning everyone should have at least one action. This can be shown again by deduction, as every BYOR that has ever run had every player with an action.

Think may very well have been simply a dick.

So, the best reasons to lynch you are:
1. You're a CLAIMED survivor with no actions. This is indisputable.
2. You are CLAIMED to be incredibly different from every other player. This is indisputable.

Those aren't reasons to kill me, either.

3. You have previously lied to the town. This is indisputable.

Again, lies and slander unless you can prove it.

4. You haven't taken any care to disprove my theories other than that the basis is on deduction rather than induction. This does not show that the conclusion is false. This shows that the conclusion COULD be false. However, it is EXTREMELY LIKELY TO BE TRUE. This is only slightly disputable.

Your deduction is based on "Everybody else has 3 roles, so Darvi must also have one" Which you not only cannot prove, but I also have no way of disproving. It is also a blatant fallacy.

5. You have FoOMGUSed me for suspecting you. That's a combination FoS OMGUS. This is only slightly disputable.

I FOS'd you for falsely interpreting the meaning of Rule 10.

Explain these away, idiot.

Done, aaand, done.

All of my "WIFOM" theories go in to show HOW these are suspicious. They do not remove these reasons.

I cannot remove these reasons because I don't have to, and cannot. There's no way to prove that I cannot action.

Also, I think you made an error in whatever it was you were saying.

I was never lurking.
Questions I've dodged were either questions that I preferred not to answer at that time (or said previously I was doing as such) or questions I missed. If you can find said missed questions, I'll gladly answer them. If they're ones I'm not answering, then I'll tell you that, too.
And that first point... isn't a point.

Wheeee more misinterpreting.

I wasn't referring to you. Which would've been obvious if you actually paid more than just passing attention to what I said.

And guess why the scum will follow through with the kill? Because they knew the target is town. Otherwise, they can just claim being blocked or shit.

Except that we have a claimed omniscient tracker who can confirm or deny any roleblocks on them. And if he's lying about that, we ask the killer to target the same person again. Simple enough.

Who said anything about dual-kill? The normal mafiakill is enough.

Again, omniscient tracker. Either he tells us who did the kill or he is even more confirmed to be scum.

Also, what with all the people who can block and redirect we can prevent several people from acting, and confirm other people's actions, significantly reducing the pool of potential killers.

[webadict]

Spoiler: Because your post looks like Swiss cheese (click to show/hide)

Everyone else has 3 abilities, an auto, an action, and a one-shot. Therefore, it is logical that you do as well and are lying. That is 12 people that are the same in a game with 13 people, so what are the chances of the 13th player being different? Not nearly high enough to take the chance.

This. Is exactly the kind of WIFOM that I am talking about. Also, read this.

You have claimed survivor. Therefore, it is logical that you should have abilities fitting a survivor such as revival, hiding, etc.

I think a resurrect would be kind of a pro-survivor ability, no? Except there's no way of finding that out until I die and I'd really rather not have that.

You claimed a pro-scum role. Therefore, as you are basically one step closer to lylo, lynching you should be imperative. Not only that, but since this is Day 1, you are a perfect player to lynch. You have no claimed actions, and you are a survivor.

Lies and slander. I have not claimed a pro-scum role. It is also in my interest to be pro-town until lylo because it is way harder to not only find out who's scum, but to also build a case on people who I think are town, and not get called out on it.

You have claimed an ability that states you do nothing. Therefore, it is illogical, as the removal of that ability would show the exact same thing. Not only that, but BYORs are role-heavy, meaning everyone should have at least one action. This can be shown again by deduction, as every BYOR that has ever run had every player with an action.

Think may very well have been simply a dick.

So, the best reasons to lynch you are:
1. You're a CLAIMED survivor with no actions. This is indisputable.
2. You are CLAIMED to be incredibly different from every other player. This is indisputable.

Those aren't reasons to kill me, either.

3. You have previously lied to the town. This is indisputable.

Again, lies and slander unless you can prove it.

4. You haven't taken any care to disprove my theories other than that the basis is on deduction rather than induction. This does not show that the conclusion is false. This shows that the conclusion COULD be false. However, it is EXTREMELY LIKELY TO BE TRUE. This is only slightly disputable.

Your deduction is based on "Everybody else has 3 roles, so Darvi must also have one" Which you not only cannot prove, but I also have no way of disproving. It is also a blatant fallacy.

5. You have FoOMGUSed me for suspecting you. That's a combination FoS OMGUS. This is only slightly disputable.

I FOS'd you for falsely interpreting the meaning of Rule 10.

Explain these away, idiot.

Done, aaand, done.

All of my "WIFOM" theories go in to show HOW these are suspicious. They do not remove these reasons.

I cannot remove these reasons because I don't have to, and cannot. There's no way to prove that I cannot action.

Lol.

You didn't explain away anything. Your main defense is "nuh uh" or something equally stupid/terrible.

My reasoning still stands.

By implying that you were town in your first claim, you lied by not telling the full truth. Your claim does not match everyone else's meaning that this, with your survivor claim, makes you a good lynch.

Survivors are pro-scum, and you know this. They bring lylo one day closer, just like a living scum, so that means you are a liability. You have "no actions," so there is no reason to keep you, because you are likely lying. So, lynching you is the best idea, before you can make something up overnight.

[Orangebottle]

I'm pretty damn sure I agreed.

Nothing keeping you from fakeclaiming so far, as far as I can see.

So, you said you'd unvote me if I agreed to use my oneshot tonight. I did. You have failed to deliver, on the ground of,"I may be fakeclaiming."
You want to know why this makes no sense?
If I'm fakeclaiming, I'm tomorrow's lynch.
If I'm not fakeclaiming, I'm still tomorrow's lynch based on scumminess.
So, why are you so afraid of untying the vote? Because frankly, your reasons for not unvoting me are bullshit.
Extend, by the way.

[Dariush]

Want to hear my theory? OB is lying about his one-shot, and it's actually something that will save him tomorrow. Well, that or his buddies have something to save him tomorrow. Taking this kind of risk is stupid, IMO.

[webadict]

Want to hear my theory? OB is lying about his one-shot, and it's actually something that will save him tomorrow. Well, that or his buddies have something to save him tomorrow. Taking this kind of risk is stupid, IMO.

And then what? It saves him the next day? It saves him at night? What?

[Toaster]

I've let this game get beyond me.  Time to catch up to it, and extend.


On The Plan:  Consider myself in.  I'll be coming up with a lynch and kill list as I go.  Unvote Dariush in the meantime.


Webadict:

To the etiquette, it's considered poor manner to have hidden aspects to roles without warning the players first.

Just like BYOR 5.5, right?


Shakerag:  You're worrying me.  Your last post is the first in a while, and the only one to contain real pertinent information.  You talk a lot about what's going on, but only a little about meaning and implication.  Finally, you don't actually take a firm stand on any issue, especially waffling back and forth there at the end.  You're not voting- who should we lynch?  Who, if anyone, should be NKed tonight?


Ottofar:

I'll just go ahead and do nothing today.
Extend.

I think any replacement requesters should be killed at night, in any case, to them not be around at LyLo

You know what?  I've seen you do this in far too many games.  You just sit on your hands and occasionally offer up little tidbits of info.  I have a better idea- we should kill you off until you start to participate. 


Orangebottle:  Stop defending Darvi. 


ECrownofFire:  I don't think you get what a chainlynch is.  Chainlynching is setting up lynches where you lynch person A if you lynch B and he flips town through setting up false either-or conditions.  ("A or B must be scum since they're fighting each other- let's lynch A and then B if A flips town.")  Predetermining a plan like this- with everyone's participation- is nigh indistinguishable from lynches.  Have you read the King of the Mafia series?  It's the same idea.

More town kills is not necessarily good if they're all based on D1 knowledge, which might as well be random. Not to mention that everyone that has a 1-shot kill is not necessarily town in the first place.

See, that's just crap.  There's plenty of good information here on D1- this is one of the more active ones I've seen in a while.

Powder Miner: If, say, mechanics allowed four lynches to be decided during the day at the same time (taking effect at the same time, as well), would you consider those four lynches to be dayplay?  I can't believe I'm asking this question.

Yes they're dayplay, but no, they're not useful. There's no information in between the lynches themselves (i.e. whether or not the lynched people were scum or not). And generally speaking, town wants to avoid a fast game. Speeding our way to MYLO as fast as possible is not a good idea. We want information and scum deaths from lynches, not random town deaths.

What is the difference between information gained from who dies in the night and who gets lynched?  If we don't come up with a plan tonight, what stops the kill-holders from shooting off of their own accord anyway, bringing your fear equally as close to reality (except more so because there's no town coordination on the kills.)

Also, why are you answering a question for Powder?  Covering for your scumbuddy?


Dariush:

Everyone who supports the quadrilynch plan:
What the unholy fuck makes you think that all three of our one-shot killers are pro-town or that their one-shot is indeed one-shot?

Because we'll be able to tell if they're lying, thanks to OB's action.

And if OB is lying, then we lynch him.

You got unvoted because while you're being obstinate, that's hardly unusual for you.  This game, I don't see it as being scummy.

Want to hear my theory? OB is lying about his one-shot, and it's actually something that will save him tomorrow. Well, that or his buddies have something to save him tomorrow. Taking this kind of risk is stupid, IMO.

Who do you think is trying to save him, then?


Darvi:  Did you realize your "I hate being town" meta is showing?  Somehow I doubt a survivor role could set it off that much.


Powder:

Powder Miner: There is no plan that involves killing three random people.  There is a plan that involves killing three people that we, as a group, decide on during the day based on scumminess during the day, but that's not killing random people.

With our current information it might as well be random. And it looks like Leafsnail's definition of scummy/useless appears to be everyone who disagrees with him.

This is just poor play.  There's plenty of information to go on here- waiting on an inspect is just weakness in your day game.

My gut's telling me you're a serial killer, but any flavor of scum is a good reason to lynch you.

Alternatively, another oh-so-basic mafia idea- less needless town deaths = good, more needless town deaths = bad. Or another one. More information = good, less = bad.

Townies die.  It sucks, but it happens.  This is a chance for more kills that are not picked out completely by the mafia.  Do you see the benefit in that?

Alternatively, another oh-so-basic mafia idea- less needless town deaths = good, more needless town deaths = bad. Or another one. More information = good, less = bad.

You're talking like you know that all the people LS suggests to kill are town.

LS said that some of the killers are probably scum. Rolling with that assertion, they'll be able to use their kills to kill town, by getting the town to kill three other town with only D1 information. It's extremely unlikely that we'd hit all three scum with D1 daygaming and info even without scum messing-around-in-things.

Again, poor play.  Here you're saying that the scum will dictate to the town who to kill, which is wrong.  The town has more voices in this- if you're town and just sit back and let things happen, you have no one to blame but yourself.  It's exactly the same thing as if you sit back and scum direct the lynch.  There is no difference.

Can you name four people you find scummy and are worthy of being removed?  I bet you can't.


MBP:  Are you here?  How about an opinion on... anything?  Mod, please prod MBP.

In summary, we should lynch Powder Miner (lynch since he's claimed unkillable) and kill Ottofar, MBP, and Darvi.  Killing a survivor is hardly a waste of an action.  Tomorrow, if OB is lying, he's lynched.  Otherwise, we see his results and go from there.

[webadict]

Webadict:

To the etiquette, it's considered poor manner to have hidden aspects to roles without warning the players first.

Just like BYOR 5.5, right?

Yes. It's pretty bad to have intentionally hidden aspects to a role. Everybody should have learned.

[Orangebottle]

Want to hear my theory? OB is lying about his one-shot, and it's actually something that will save him tomorrow. Well, that or his buddies have something to save him tomorrow. Taking this kind of risk is stupid, IMO.

Okay.
Let's think about this from your point of view for a second.
-I'm scum.
-I'm about to be lynched for playing terribly.
-I fakeclaim my previously unclaimed oneshot, hoping to avoid a lynch.
-My buddies have some other oneshot that can save me.
-Lynch is dodged.
-The next day rolls around.
-I can't claim what actions happened last night because my oneshot isn't actually the one I have.
-I am about to get lynched AGAIN.
-Buddies use ability that saves my ass again.

There are a couple of problems with this.
1. Claiming this particular oneshot prevents my claim from being fake. Claiming something that is easily proved false the next day will just get me lynched the next day.
2. Using an ability that keeps someone from being lynched on a player as bad as myself? I'd just get lynched on day three. Or, I'd get nightkilled night two. What would be the point? I only remain useful to the scum if I can disguise myself as a townie. They're better off bussing me and using that ability elsewhere.
Toaster:derp. Should we find good enough reasons, I'd be fine with lynching Darvi despite his role. We're starting to get there.

[Darvi]

-snip-

Actually, you're right. Voting you doesn't really achieve anything. PM because I shoulda done so ages ago.

Darvi:  Did you realize your "I hate being town" meta is showing?  Somehow I doubt a survivor role could set it off that much.

You mean how I'm more active than usually? That's because as town I can still win if I'm dead. As a survivor, not so much. I figured the best way to not get lynched is to put more effort into scumhunting than usual.

and Darvi.  Killing a survivor is hardly a waste of an action.

Go fuck one of wuba's lemons.

[Orangebottle]

-snip-

Actually, you're right. Voting you doesn't really achieve anything. PM because I shoulda done so ages ago.

Sure. Take the easy way out by not answering the question I asked you in that post. That'll get me off your ass real fast.

So, why are you so afraid of untying the vote?

Considering you just re-tied the vote, it's still a valid question.

[webadict]

-snip-

Actually, you're right. Voting you doesn't really achieve anything. PM because I shoulda done so ages ago.

Darvi:  Did you realize your "I hate being town" meta is showing?  Somehow I doubt a survivor role could set it off that much.

You mean how I'm more active than usually? That's because as town I can still win if I'm dead. As a survivor, not so much. I figured the best way to not get lynched is to put more effort into scumhunting than usual.

and Darvi.  Killing a survivor is hardly a waste of an action.

Go fuck one of wuba's lemons.

Vote hopping is an incredibly effective method of showing you're scum.