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[Jim Groovester]

Extend because I'm not going to be here for the deadline and want more time and Phantom of the Library in case there's no extension.

[Phantom of The Library]

Phantom of the Library, all game long your list of suspects have been the people attacking you. Why? Are you so interested in self-preservation that you only bother going after the people who are going after you?

It's merely a coincidence that the people who went after me were scummy.
In some cases their attack on me confirmed my suspicions that they were scum, or added more evidence to my suspicions, which were confirmed by their actions afterwards. I could care less about my image, if I did then I would be less aggressive not more, all I care about right now is making sure that the scum, namely Andrew4scum5, is lynched so we don't lose.

I started with an FoS because it is lylo, and I didn't want to misplace my vote, so I decided to put a little pressure on the person who I found to be the most suspicious, namely Andrew425. I put a little pressure on you and you immediately attack me, just what I would expect scum to do.  You have 12 hours to convince me that you're not scum.

If you were going for pressure, what the hell for? You already suspected Andrew425 and apparently have lots of reasons for thinking that way. Why not start with a vote?

Throwing down an FoS at the start of lylo makes you look timid, like you don't want to be the first person to vote. This makes me think you're scum.

Saying that Andrew425 did just what you expected scum to do sounds a lot like you're just making shit up to justify your vote. How is it that attacking you for an FoS instead of a vote is exactly what scum would do? Explain this to me.

I started out with an FoS, because I thought that since it was LYLO we should only vote if we are completely sure, so I decided to do one last test to see if he was the scum.  His reaction seems scummy to me because he immediately attacked me and called me scum after I put pressure on him, when he had been completely neutral before and gave no indication that he thought that I was scum, other than his earlier false accusations, which he redacted and claimed to be a mistake.

Reasons

Why are so many of these borrowed straight from Dariush without even a summary or a paraphrase by you?

Seems lazy to me. Are you getting lazy? You can see the end of the game in sight, you think the game's already won, time to relax a bit, kick up your shoes, not come up with strong reasons for a vote?

They are borrowed from Dariush because I thought that what he said sufficiently summed up what I was going to, and I knew that people were going to accuse me of taking arguments from an IC anyway, as many of my cases have already been stated before the ICs before I had a chance to, so I might as well directly quote one.  At the end of my post I will detail my reasons for thinking that Andrew is scum in more depth.

First: I don't know why you quoted that as it means absolutely nothing

The main point of the quote is the WIFOM and your shaky accusations.

Second: I mixed you and Zombie up.

This is what you say.

Third: Using Dariush's horrible arguments as your own, scum?

Please explain how they are horrible.

Fourth: I attacked him because he was doing a terrible job at it.

The quality of his ICing has nothing to do with whether or not he's scum.

Fifth: I attacked you because you're uncomfortable calling someone out as scum. Which is one of the biggest scum tells in the book

I've been perfectly fine with calling people scum, I've done it plenty of times. Scum. I don't see anywhere I seem uncomfortable calling people such.

Sixth: I was afraid the day would end before I got a chance to vote as I was busy that night.

So then what were your reasons then?  All I see right now is you attacking my last post, and a single accusation of unoriginality.

So not only are all you attacks wrong. They're scum tells. So that is why I know you're scum.

Please explain how these are scum-tells, I fail to see it.  I also fail to see how they are wrong.

Phantom, out of your six arguments two directly quote from me and another one consists of defending me. Why are you trying to hide behind IC's authority?

No, most of Andrew's actions that have revealed him as scum, were in his interactions with you, thus the large presence of you in my reasons, also see above for why I used you to paraphrase.


For the first reason:
He provided an extremely weak argument as to why he was voting, as he has done again just now.
He also produced one of his many cases of WIFOM.

The second:
He attacked me on false premises and then he backed off after he was called out on it.

The third:
More WIFOM as he has been prone to trying to give out the entire game, and he tried to avoid taking any significant stance whatsoever.

The fourth:
An IC's ability to IC has nothing to do with whether or not they are scum, you're simply trying to look for a reason to cast suspicion on somebody.

The sixth:
Already explained.

The sixth:
He OMGUSed, the moment I actually voted for him he did so in return, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a very obvious scum-tell.


All in all he seems to have no reason for his arguments and simply makes up reasons to justify them, since there are no actual pieces of evidence to back up his claims.  In addition, he attempts to spread confusion whenever possible, via WIFOM.

[Phantom of The Library]

Also,
I vote for Extension because if I die, then we lose, and I can't let that happen, especially when I know that Andrew is scum.

[zombie urist]

Extend

I'll do a reread over weekend.

[Tiruin]

Sorry, just wondering when the day ends as the Mod didn't say when (or edit it in).

[webadict]

Day is Extended until Tuesday.

[Jim Groovester]

Why would somebody start a day off with a FoS on lylo? So you can cast doubt on me without being the first one to just jump on me. Scumwise Scumgee.

Oh god more WIFOM.

How?

His second sentence may or may not be right, but he assumes it is.

Players make judgments about the motives behind other players' actions all the time. Nobody calls it WIFOM.

Are you really that afraid of taking even such an insignificant stance, Andrew?

Then what do you make of Phantom of the Library only throwing an FoS out to start the day?

Caution. It would be suspicious in an experienced player, but not in a BM.

Why is Phantom of the Library cautious but Andrew425 is afraid of taking a stance, even an insignificant one?

It's the same goddamn behavior. Why are you treating it differently?

Phantom, out of your six arguments two directly quote from me and another one consists of defending me. Why are you trying to hide behind IC's authority?

Why the change of mind? This is lylo. I want a more extensive breakdown of your reasons, because right now, you don't look like you really care so long as you get somebody.

I could care less about my image, if I did then I would be less aggressive not more, all I care about right now is making sure that the scum, namely Andrew4scum5, is lynched so we don't lose.

If you didn't care about it, you wouldn't mention it, because I certainly didn't.

I started out with an FoS, because I thought that since it was LYLO we should only vote if we are completely sure, so I decided to do one last test to see if he was the scum.  His reaction seems scummy to me because he immediately attacked me and called me scum after I put pressure on him, when he had been completely neutral before and gave no indication that he thought that I was scum, other than his earlier false accusations, which he redacted and claimed to be a mistake.

You FoSed somebody at lylo, somebody you apparently suspected. There's a discrepancy between your words and your actions. A vote reflects suspicion; not having the former when the latter is present is odd, curious, notable, attention-worthy, and suspicious.

What would have been the right way for him to respond? I've got a feeling you don't know, because there was no way he could've responded that wouldn't have confirmed your suspicions.

They are borrowed from Dariush because I thought that what he said sufficiently summed up what I was going to, and I knew that people were going to accuse me of taking arguments from an IC anyway, as many of my cases have already been stated before the ICs before I had a chance to, so I might as well directly quote one.  At the end of my post I will detail my reasons for thinking that Andrew is scum in more depth.

So, no point even paraphrasing them at all? If you're going to get accused of something, you might as well make sure that people are going to be completely right about it?

That's stupid.

The second:
He attacked me on false premises and then he backed off after he was called out on it.

If you assume that everything anybody does in a game of mafia is a deliberate, calculated move, you will be very, very surprised to learn how wrong you are.

The sixth:
He OMGUSed, the moment I actually voted for him he did so in return, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a very obvious scum-tell.

Not really. OMGUS is probably one of the most meaningless scum tells ever. It's pretty much never right.

[Dariush]

Players make judgments about the motives behind other players' actions all the time. Nobody calls it WIFOM.

It is not WIFOM when the judgement has some clear purpose behind it, not vaguely philosophizing for the sake of it.

Why is Phantom of the Library cautious but Andrew425 is afraid of taking a stance, even an insignificant one?

It's the same goddamn behavior. Why are you treating it differently?

Andrew's 'I think it is LYLO' is more, probably intentionally, vague. Since we know the number of both town and scum, we know for sure it is LYLO.

Why the change of mind? This is lylo. I want a more extensive breakdown of your reasons, because right now, you don't look like you really care so long as you get somebody.

Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

[Phantom of The Library]

I could care less about my image, if I did then I would be less aggressive not more, all I care about right now is making sure that the scum, namely Andrew4scum5, is lynched so we don't lose.

If you didn't care about it, you wouldn't mention it, because I certainly didn't.

You gave the impression that you did though, and I wanted to get back to lynching Andrew as soon as possible, not mentioning it, I felt, would look like I was ignoring the accusation.

I started out with an FoS, because I thought that since it was LYLO we should only vote if we are completely sure, so I decided to do one last test to see if he was the scum.  His reaction seems scummy to me because he immediately attacked me and called me scum after I put pressure on him, when he had been completely neutral before and gave no indication that he thought that I was scum, other than his earlier false accusations, which he redacted and claimed to be a mistake.

You FoSed somebody at lylo, somebody you apparently suspected. There's a discrepancy between your words and your actions. A vote reflects suspicion; not having the former when the latter is present is odd, curious, notable, attention-worthy, and suspicious.

What would have been the right way for him to respond? I've got a feeling you don't know, because there was no way he could've responded that wouldn't have confirmed your suspicions.

I was under the impression that a vote, when in LYLO, meant that you were completely sure.
If he had responded more moderately or continued to go after Dariush or urist like he had been doing, then I would have looked over everything again to see who I thought was the most scummy, more carefully reviewing.  After researching, my vote would have landed on him anyway though.

They are borrowed from Dariush because I thought that what he said sufficiently summed up what I was going to, and I knew that people were going to accuse me of taking arguments from an IC anyway, as many of my cases have already been stated before the ICs before I had a chance to, so I might as well directly quote one.  At the end of my post I will detail my reasons for thinking that Andrew is scum in more depth.

So, no point even paraphrasing them at all? If you're going to get accused of something, you might as well make sure that people are going to be completely right about it?

That's stupid.

Now that you've made me think about it, it was illogical thinking on my part.  Still, I believe that the large majority of my case is valid.

The second:
He attacked me on false premises and then he backed off after he was called out on it.

If you assume that everything anybody does in a game of mafia is a deliberate, calculated move, you will be very, very surprised to learn how wrong you are.

This question is meant as an IC question: isn't that the entire point of mafia though?  Deliberate, calculated moves?  How am I  supposed to accuse anybody if I don't assume that their every move is carefully calculated?

The sixth:
He OMGUSed, the moment I actually voted for him he did so in return, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a very obvious scum-tell.

Not really. OMGUS is probably one of the most meaningless scum tells ever. It's pretty much never right.

Thank you for correcting me on such, I will avoid putting so much weight on it in the future.

Why the change of mind? This is lylo. I want a more extensive breakdown of your reasons, because right now, you don't look like you really care so long as you get somebody.

Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

If the vote was pressure, then why did you leave it there where it would have killed me if there hadn't been an extension?  Moreover, why have you not redacted it if it was a pressure vote?


Andrew425, zombie urist where are you?


PPE: Jim and Dariush, could both of you please explain your reasons behind your voting me?

[zombie urist]

Andrew425, zombie urist where are you?

Weekend + President's day = time away from computer. I did do a reread though. Also lets have another extension.

Andrew's 'I think it is LYLO' is more, probably intentionally, vague. Since we know the number of both town and scum, we know for sure it is LYLO.
Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

Andrew actually says 'This is lylo' at the bottom of his post. Also, I don't understand what you mean by using you for cover.

In some cases their attack on me confirmed my suspicions that they were scum, or added more evidence to my suspicions, which were confirmed by their actions afterwards. I could care less about my image, if I did then I would be less aggressive not more, all I care about right now is making sure that the scum, namely Andrew4scum5, is lynched so we don't lose.

It's funny how Strategia turned up town. I don't see how anyone's role can be confirmed in this game unless you are cop, which you aren't, or they die.
So far your entire game plan has been pressure votes, then accuse them of attacking you on false premises. And it hasn't worked so far.

This question is meant as an IC question: isn't that the entire point of mafia though?  Deliberate, calculated moves?  How am I  supposed to accuse anybody if I don't assume that their every move is carefully calculated?

This question doesn't make sense to me. If you assume everyone's moves are perfectly calculated (which is impossible) then there would be no scumtells, or any mistakes that could be used for accusation.

My reasons for voting Phantom is this.
You have yet to actually come up for a reason for voting anyone in this game. You take other people arguments and use them as your own, this means that you're scum who can't think of their own arguments.

I count this as only one reason and ironically this was borrowed from Jim.

Are you really that afraid of taking even such an insignificant stance, Andrew?

Then what do you make of Phantom of the Library only throwing an FoS out to start the day?

Caution. It would be suspicious in an experienced player, but not in a BM.

Why is Phantom of the Library cautious but Andrew425 is afraid of taking a stance, even an insignificant one?
It's the same goddamn behavior. Why are you treating it differently?

It's interesting how Andrew's stance (whether or not it is lylo) is much less significant than Phantom's.

[Jim Groovester]

Players make judgments about the motives behind other players' actions all the time. Nobody calls it WIFOM.

It is not WIFOM when the judgement has some clear purpose behind it, not vaguely philosophizing for the sake of it.

'Phantom of the Library is scum' isn't a clear purpose? It looks like a pretty fucking clear purpose to me.

And this is where I start suspecting you because you're being inconsistent and not making any sense.

Why is Phantom of the Library cautious but Andrew425 is afraid of taking a stance, even an insignificant one?

It's the same goddamn behavior. Why are you treating it differently?

Andrew's 'I think it is LYLO' is more, probably intentionally, vague. Since we know the number of both town and scum, we know for sure it is LYLO.

This doesn't answer my question.

Why are you describing Phantom of the Library more favorably and Andrew425 less so when their behavior is basically the same? They both opened lylo with statements about their suspicions but did not vote.

Andrew425 being vague about whether it's lylo seems completely insignificant.

Why the change of mind? This is lylo. I want a more extensive breakdown of your reasons, because right now, you don't look like you really care so long as you get somebody.

Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

What was your vote on Andrew425 then? Was that for pressure?

Who do you actually suspect then?

I asked for a more extensive breakdown of your reasoning and you gave me a single line.

Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

If the vote was pressure, then why did you leave it there where it would have killed me if there hadn't been an extension?  Moreover, why have you not redacted it if it was a pressure vote?

There's also this point that Phantom of the Library brought up that I'm very interested to hear the answer to.

It's interesting how Andrew's stance (whether or not it is lylo) is much less significant than Phantom's.

Is there a point you're trying to make?

You have yet to actually come up for a reason for voting anyone in this game. You take other people arguments and use them as your own, this means that you're scum who can't think of their own arguments.

This is weak. Where are your strong arguments?

I was under the impression that a vote, when in LYLO, meant that you were completely sure.
If he had responded more moderately or continued to go after Dariush or urist like he had been doing, then I would have looked over everything again to see who I thought was the most scummy, more carefully reviewing.  After researching, my vote would have landed on him anyway though.

You'll never be completely sure about any vote. You can have very strong feelings about it, but you'll never be able to be completely sure. That said, if you suspect someone, then that's where your vote should be. Your vote should represent your best guess about who's scum, and you better have good reasons for thinking that way and be able to provide them.

If Andrew425 was your best guess, you should have voted him. If you weren't so sure, then you should've held back and see what a round of questioning turned up.

Your problem is that you used an FoS. It means you suspected him, and therefore you should have voted him. If you didn't want to vote him right then and there, then you shouldn't have made any statement about your suspicions and it would have been clear to everyone that you were trying to make up your mind. This being lylo, nobody would have faulted you for taking time in making a decision.

This question is meant as an IC question: isn't that the entire point of mafia though?  Deliberate, calculated moves?  How am I  supposed to accuse anybody if I don't assume that their every move is carefully calculated?

But people never act in a completely deliberate and calculated manner so it's a moot point.

You can still accuse people because they slip up. This is why you look at everything they've said and done and ask them tough questions, because they may not have been as tight with their game as they should've been, and you can bring these mistakes out to light for everyone to look at.

PPE: Jim and Dariush, could both of you please explain your reasons behind your voting me?

Timidity going into lylo, not willing to vote the people you say you suspect.

The more I question you the more I think these mistakes are because you're new instead of because you're scum.

Unvote for now and extend.

[zombie urist]

Theres no point of having so many extends if no one's going to play...

Why the change of mind? This is lylo. I want a more extensive breakdown of your reasons, because right now, you don't look like you really care so long as you get somebody.

Firstly, extend. Secondly, my Phantom vote was mostly pressure, since I wanted to know why he is using me for cover.

What was your vote on Andrew425 then? Was that for pressure?

Yeah this is making me wonder if you (Daruish) have any real leads on scum, especially this late in the game.

It's interesting how Andrew's stance (whether or not it is lylo) is much less significant than Phantom's.

Is there a point you're trying to make?

It would make sense for Phantom to be more cautious about voting someone wrongly than for Andrew to be worried about whether or not its LYLO.

[Andrew425]

Extend

I'm really busy right now

[webadict]

You guys have extended like 50 times. You might want to consider actually playing during that time. You have until 9 PM tonight to get posting, otherwise the Day ends then.

[Dariush]

'Phantom of the Library is scum' isn't a clear purpose? It looks like a pretty fucking clear purpose to me.

And this is where I start suspecting you because you're being inconsistent and not making any sense.

_{Being taken for scum while ICing in a BM, what a great achievement in my Mafia career.}
What I'm saying is: beginning the day with a FoS may or may not be 'casting the doubt and so on'. Andrew didn't continue that line of thinking and didn't even vote Phantom, thus he didn't have what I called 'clear purpose'.

This doesn't answer my question.

Why are you describing Phantom of the Library more favorably and Andrew425 less so when their behavior is basically the same? They both opened lylo with statements about their suspicions but did not vote.

Andrew made a vague statement about the possiblity of LYLO and didn't neither vote nor FoS Phantom, kinda activelurkily drifting by the beginning of the day. Phantom, however, despite admittedly PFPing, made two solid questions. I doubt that can be considered the same behavior.

What was your vote on Andrew425 then? Was that for pressure?

Who do you actually suspect then?

I asked for a more extensive breakdown of your reasoning and you gave me a single line.

Right now I'm sure that either Phantom or Andrew are scum. At first I didn't suspect Phantom, but him using me for cover changed my mind, so I pressured him, especially since Andrew's mistakes, in retrospect, seemed like something Toaster wouldn't advise to do. Phantom's answer satisified me, so Andrew it is.

There's also this point that Phantom of the Library brought up that I'm very interested to hear the answer to.

I think I missed Phantom's response when I made my previous post.

Andrew actually says 'This is lylo' at the bottom of his post.

Sure he does, after saying that he thinks it is LYLO. Sure, that is not much, but hesitance is evident.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by using you for cover.

Half of his arguments directly referred to me and how Andrew was scum for attacking me.