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[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Before there's an official hardcore version, in the mean time you are free to try out my mod. It features anti shut-in mechanisms and more exciting enemies. I have advertised my mod on every single "It's easy" topics I stumble upon and I have yet to come across a "your mod is easy" feedback. Very big link/button/picture to the file depot below:

Looks like a successful fort.

[dwarfhoplite]

Game should get progressively more difficult over time but it's getting easier instead

[Sheb]

Yes, but that's what happen in the real world, enemies don't become stronger because you are.

[Muz]

Yeah, I think it's hard enough as it is. I prefer setting some ground rules, like making an ethically moral fortress, which already makes the game difficult. Those who want to play by the game's rules (especially in the current alpha version) will find it a bit too easy.. but they can just get all the tons of difficulty mods out there.

IMO, a game should just be easy enough for the average player to get through. I mean, heck, this game is all about dying, and I'm sure there's going to be more fun deaths when things like poison and dwarven smallpox and vampires and titan mages are fully implemented. After that point, there'd be plenty of mods to make the game more Fun, if it's too easy.

Though, there is a point to be made about the game getting easier as time passes on. Enemies don't become stronger, but once you establish yourself as a major power, a fortress-state would end up having foreign powers ally to destroy them, or suffer from internal politics ripping it apart, excess luxury and complacency, and dangerous ideologies like capitalism which would lead to some capitalistic spiral where only 1% of dwarves hold 80% of the wealth of the fortress.

[Tai_MT]

Yeah, I think it's hard enough as it is. I prefer setting some ground rules, like making an ethically moral fortress, which already makes the game difficult. Those who want to play by the game's rules (especially in the current alpha version) will find it a bit too easy.. but they can just get all the tons of difficulty mods out there.

IMO, a game should just be easy enough for the average player to get through. I mean, heck, this game is all about dying, and I'm sure there's going to be more fun deaths when things like poison and dwarven smallpox and vampires and titan mages are fully implemented. After that point, there'd be plenty of mods to make the game more Fun, if it's too easy.

Though, there is a point to be made about the game getting easier as time passes on. Enemies don't become stronger, but once you establish yourself as a major power, a fortress-state would end up having foreign powers ally to destroy them, or suffer from internal politics ripping it apart, excess luxury and complacency, and dangerous ideologies like capitalism which would lead to some capitalistic spiral where only 1% of dwarves hold 80% of the wealth of the fortress.

How is capitalism dangerous exactly?  Are you one of those people that fail to realize it's the "top 1%" of people who employ the other 99% who don't have ambitions of their own and merely want to "get through life"?  It's one thing to have a dream, quite another to possess the drive and motivation to accomplish it.  Not all human beings are created equal.  Likewise not all dwarves are either.  Some will just be better than others, and the only way to "even it out" or "make it fair" is to make them all share the same misery.  Why do you think Communism fails everywhere its tried?  Abject poverty, reliance on the nanny-state for basic needs, crushing policies towards businesses which lead to heavy monopolizations of a good or service via kickbacks to the government...

In any case...  I do think it's tough as it is.  When on earth does it get easier?  I can make it to 5 years of gametime before everything comes crashing down around my ears.  Tantrum spirals, sieges that obliterate most of my populace (or all of it, depending on how I'm set up).  Sieges also seem to get more powerful and siegers get more numerous as I go on.  I sometimes have upwards of 300+ GOBLINS on the map during a Siege (this isn't counting their troll friends or mounts).  When, oh when, does this get any easier?

I might be able to side with the OP if I could understand just what about anything I've experienced in current versions of DF is "easy".  For me, it's easy until siegers show up.  Then there's usually too many of them for any defenses I have to be worth a crap.  And I can never even get a military up to "elite" status by the time I'm wiped out (I don't use danger rooms...  I consider them cheating to an extent, no skill to set up, no skill to train, and with very little effort you have goddwarves).

The only "difficulty" thing I could see adding to the game would probably be having your own homeland go to war with you as well.  Currently you can't be at war with your own home country no matter how large or prestigious you become as a settlement.  I think that's a bit wrong.  Why wouldn't jealousy from home bring troops from there to attempt to bring you under total hegemonic domination?

I dunno, I just like the idea of making it EASIER to go to war with some races.  Kobolds and Dwarves namely.  Elves seem to also be harder to go to war with than Humans currently.  I lose two human diplomats and I go to war.  I've lost five or six elven caravans and no war from them yet.

[King DZA]

Let's try not to turn this into a political debate, shall we? They piss me off and accomplish nothing.

Also, Loud Whispers is right about the randomly generated part. That, along with the many varied styles that people play in, means that a fortress can be a massive gaping hellhole of pain and horror, or a wondrous and tranquil environment, seldom confronted by any real danger. If you find it too easy or too hard, try changing up your embarks/playstyle.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well I think your right but every solution you suggested has been suggested before, except maybe the alcoholism part which doesn't sound right in my ears(dwarves drinking too much? phfft ).

Dwarves should be alcoholic, it just shouldn't affect them. There's a good reason dwarves drink alcohol--what little water most would have access to is tainted somehow, with the best quality and quantity coming from monster-infested caverns. So they brew alcohol from plants and their juices.

-----

IMHO, the game's difficulty is mostly okay. A beginner can make a fort without fear that wild wolves will kill the dwarves and eat their food before a decent meeting area and farms are built, nor that goblin raiders will be raiding before they've had a few migrant waves and a caravan (not to mention plenty of prospecting time for local metalsmithing and maybe a couple moods) allow them to make a basic militia and some traps. And so forth. It could use some work, but we have to think of noobs, too. No one will play the game if you have to be an expert to not die before you can learn. Ideally, though, later-game challenges would be harder, or else more later-game goals would open up. The War Arc will help the latter; social friction among the fort will aid the former. But outside danger is fine, except maybe that semi/megabeasts and really late-game sieges need to be beefed up (maybe have them wait longer, and/or tempt the player with the occasional siegetime desperate migrants or caravan?)

[irmo]

Yes you do. Mod the game. Take out cavern fungus, make plants take longer to grow, make dwarves smaller, edit existing creatures to make them even more difficult. Or you could just use advanced world parameters.

Okay, how do I mod aquifers to behave realistically instead of just gushing infinite amounts of water?

[Loud Whispers]

Yes you do. Mod the game. Take out cavern fungus, make plants take longer to grow, make dwarves smaller, edit existing creatures to make them even more difficult. Or you could just use advanced world parameters.

Okay, how do I mod aquifers to behave realistically instead of just gushing infinite amounts of water?

Hard coded, not possible

[irmo]

Okay, how do I mod aquifers to behave realistically instead of just gushing infinite amounts of water?

Hard coded, not possible

Congratulations, you understand the problem.

EDIT: Which is not to say the solution is to put aquifer physics in "aquifer_physics.txt" so that we can mod them. It's fine for stuff like that to be hardcoded. What it needs is for Toady to pay some attention to getting it right, and my concern is that he doesn't seem to be interested in doing that.

[Tai_MT]

Let's try not to turn this into a political debate, shall we? They piss me off and accomplish nothing.

Also, Loud Whispers is right about the randomly generated part. That, along with the many varied styles that people play in, means that a fortress can be a massive gaping hellhole of pain and horror, or a wondrous and tranquil environment, seldom confronted by any real danger. If you find it too easy or too hard, try changing up your embarks/playstyle.

Doesn't seem to matter where I embark.  Once the fourth siege shows up...  I lose, ha ha.  I think the difficulty is honestly quite fine as it is.  Sure Toady could add some things that might make the "between sieges" more interesting instead of "can I build anything before the next one shows up".  But all in all, it works great the way it does.  Plenty of challenge.  Already in the game, or ready to be easily modded into it.  Sometimes I do a bit of both.  Sometimes I do a challenge.  Sometimes starting in a sandy desert with no water is Fun! in its own right.  Putting your skills to the test, even if you do suck at the game, is still pretty entertaining and worth a try.  Especially when you've disabled "seasonal save" and "annual save" and only have "save upon quit" active.  Lose a fort, it's lost for good.  No way to retrieve it.

As for the political debate stuff...  I agree that it ultimately accomplishes nothing.  However, the way I am...  It's hard to let an erroneous and out-of-place comment like "capitalism is bad!!!! evil!!! BOO!!!" go unanswered.  I try to avoid these kinds of debates and statements because I know they derail topics and cause much flamewarring.

[HeWhoCannotBeNamed]

Cage trap corridor with raising bridges at both ends. Bonus points if the corridor is floodable.

[Muz]

How is capitalism dangerous exactly?  Are you one of those people that fail to realize it's the "top 1%" of people who employ the other 99% who don't have ambitions of their own and merely want to "get through life"?  It's one thing to have a dream, quite another to possess the drive and motivation to accomplish it.  Not all human beings are created equal.  Likewise not all dwarves are either.  Some will just be better than others, and the only way to "even it out" or "make it fair" is to make them all share the same misery.  Why do you think Communism fails everywhere its tried?  Abject poverty, reliance on the nanny-state for basic needs, crushing policies towards businesses which lead to heavy monopolizations of a good or service via kickbacks to the government...

Heh, that was sarcasm/satire DF works perfectly fine on communism, with the dwarves living happily with each other. Plus LCS is sort of a political satire on its own. I could see Toady making some kind of political-economic satire with DF

Though in gameplay terms, capitalism strips away the power of the player, giving more power to the dwarves. Plus, it can be Ruthless Fantasy Capitalism. There is a bit of Fun to be had when one dwarf monopolizes all steel manufacturing, gains 80% of profits on manufacture of weapons, assassinates potential competitors, and hoards sapphire-set weapons to sell off at an inflated price to rich, unskilled businessdwarves during a siege. The defense will consist mostly of dwarven bodyguards and their businessdwarves hiding in their mansions while the poor farmers and masons get slaughtered by goblins.

You'll get some dwarves with platinum statues and gold second toes, while others scrape off just enough to get a 1x1 room and a plump helmet per day, but still ecstatic due to philantrophic dwarves providing artifact tables to the communal dining room (though they'd have to pay a 1 silver fee to eat there because the dining room land was bought off by a real estate dwarf who bribed the king with a pair of spiky gem socks).

Let's see how easy it is when capitalism strips away most of your power. And we haven't even started with the Dwarven Mafia. Or milk dealers keeping your dwarves sober...

On second thought, capitalism deserves its own thread, but a quick search seems to indicate that there's a few already.

[Babylon]

Game should get progressively more difficult over time but it's getting easier instead

That tends to be the case with god games.  Sim City, the Civilization series, and the Sims all get easier over time.

I do think that making a self sufficient fort more difficult would add a lot, especcially as the fort gets bigger.  If it requires trade to have enough food and booze for 100 dwarves rather than having it be possible to produce it all on site this would make the game MUCH more challenging.  Luxury requirements to keep them happy that require trade would as well.  That would mean that turtling up when seiges come wouldn't be enough.

[SugaSuga]

Okay, how do I mod aquifers to behave realistically instead of just gushing infinite amounts of water?

Hard coded, not possible

Congratulations, you understand the problem.

EDIT: Which is not to say the solution is to put aquifer physics in "aquifer_physics.txt" so that we can mod them. It's fine for stuff like that to be hardcoded. What it needs is for Toady to pay some attention to getting it right, and my concern is that he doesn't seem to be interested in doing that.

The problem with that is that Toady is a one man team when it comes to coding. Not only that, but I think in these discussions it ultimately comes down to "Toady's game". We never paid for it and dont have to donate and Toady I think just codes into what he's into at the time.

Also, the entire issue you bring up is game difficulty. That's EASILY moddable,put on some trapavoid tags, bigger size, more civs and earlier sieges. In your list you also said that you think food should go bad. I'm not sure if that's moddable but you can modify how much dwarves eat and (I think) how much plants produce...