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[Jackrabbit]

I see.
Well, different views, I guess.

So, as to draw a conclusion, after being immersed for a while in the Star Wars universe, and then suddenly finding out that The Force is caused by some bacterial infection, passed on by ticks, one is supposed to feel relieved, and all the Star Wars universe should suddenly seem a lot better.

Ok.

I'm not sure that fantasy is really a good comparison here. I don't know anyone who can move stuff with their mind.

But really, if they could, and it turned out it wasn't just some magical power but something grounded in reality, that would mean there's a chance that we might be able to change it and make it so I can move stuff with my mind, which would be hella awesome. Regardless, not an apt comparison.

e: also, not sure what you mean by relieved. I don't think I ever mentioned relief being part of it. I'm not particularly relieved that the sun isn't actually Ra but is in fact a giant ball of radioactive fire, I just think it's neat.

[Max White]

Not to most, but maybe to some.

People were annoyed when the force went from some magical force of wonder and make believe to something that had to follow logical laws and structure (No matter how poorly conceived), and in the same way there are people who would prefer to shut there ears and say 'They are very special' rather than have an understanding of themselves.

It didn't make starwars any worse, it just changed what you thought it was, and you didn't like that. In the same way, just the idea of changing somebodies view about their sexuality, regardless of for better or worse, scares people. To some it doesn't matter if it is proven to stem from the gender of a slug that burrows into your skull when you hit puberty and that slug controls your preferences, or if it is how you were raised. If it conflicts with their view, they discredit it.


We call these people 'zealots'.

[EveryZig]

I find the sun to be much more awesome as it is than as Ra. Instead of some wizard, the sun is an explosion so huge entire worlds revolve around it.


I am ok with magical systems in fiction, as long as they are consistent and properly integrated into the setting (or if not integrated, not integrated for a good reason).
Mitochlorians are such a terrible explanation because they are not an explanation at all. Instead of humanoids using magic, now there bacteria which use magic. That explains almost nothing about what the force actually is or how it functions. Having it based on bacteria just opens up a whole bunch of world-building problems, such as why people would make a loyal clone army and not give them superpowers or why the Sith don't pump themselves full of mitochlorians when their whole thing is power at any cost.

[Bauglir]

To be fair, you don't have to subscribe to the worldview that sees investigation as its own miraculous pursuit. However, you did ask why people want to answer this question, and that worldview is why*. Insisting that investigating is wrong, or that it would somehow prevent you from being who you are, and therefore other people should not seek out the answers seems like an unfair imposition of your own viewpoint on others. Though it's far less than the imposition of people who would try to tell you that your sexuality is sinful, don't get me wrong. It just seems a matter of degree.

*Excepting people who have ulterior motives, such as the naturalistic argument or seeking to apply that knowledge in a horrifying manner. Those are problems unrelated to the actual question, though, I have to emphasize, and attempting to stop people from asking the question completely misses them. The bigotry is still going to be there.

[kaenneth]

It was pretty clear to me that Mitochlorians were only a measurable side effect of the force, not a cause of it.

My thought is being gay it a genetically enabled trait that is triggered by environmental factors; factors that occur often in the womb.

[Reudh]

My thought is that it's about 30-30-30 genetics-environment-nurture, with the remaining 10 being random factors.

A lot of the women in my extended family are gay. I attempted to calculate:
Out of my five great aunts: two are lesbian, one has 'dabbled' and one is bisexual.
Out of my mother's cousins: one is bisexual. One more is unconfirmed bisexual. Another is a lesbian.
Out of my cousins: one is unconfirmed bisexual.

Is that a huge amount for a family? Or am I reading too deeply? The era the great aunts were born in may have something to do with it. (1940s, so grew up in 1960s)

Then there's me. Flamboyant and eccentric but not gay. Though sadly some girls think 'flamboyant and eccentric = gay'.

[Max White]

Well I don't think I have any homosexuals in my family. Not even the closet type, so it might be a high count...

[Reudh]

But seriously. What causes 'gay' to appear? Is it the controversial suggestion that genetics plays a part in it?
I think so. Shoot me if I'm wrong, but how has homosexuality existed despite as stated before, enormous evolutionary pressure? How does it contribute to the race?

Is it a genetic factor that limits population growth? In my odd mind that makes sense. For something like this to exist, it has to confer some sort of benefit on the species. What benefit does homosexuality give?

Smaller overall population? Possibly.
Couples adopting children that would otherwise grow up without a family? That's a good thing.

I have NOTHING against homosexual people, male or female. A great many of my friends are either gay, lesbian or bisexual- I do not even see it as being different.

It's also nurture. One of my younger cousins is almost definitely going to be gay. He's showing signs of it already. A factor would be that his mother left his father years ago, and then his father's long time girlfriend of eleven years just up and left as well. Leaving the father as the only stalwart figure in his life (not to say he's a good man, he's a dead beat, but he's all the kid's got)... and as we all know sexuality develops in childhood based on parents.

[Osmosis Jones]

and as we all know sexuality develops in childhood based on parents.

Isn't the whole point of this thread that we don't know this?

[Reudh]

Well then perhaps I should rephrase that.
It's my own personal opinion that upbringing at least partially affects sexuality.

Freudian psychology says that a child will affix to types similar to their opposite gender parent. What if that one isn't available?

What if the only females in my cousin's life have abandoned him?
His mother = drug addled woman who ran away.
His 'step mother' (not really, just dad's de facto) = ran away
His sister = Becoming a bit of a tearaway, now has little to do with the family.

His father = only one even there for him.

So that holds females in a very bad light to him.
The only male he is close to has stood by him.

Tell me that won't affect him in some way.

[MaximumZero]

Unfortunately (for !!SCIENCE!!) individual people react differently to different situations. It may force a horrible opinion of his father and drive him to find acceptance in the arms of a woman, or he may forswear relationships altogether. It's just more complicated than that.

[Vector]

It also positions women even more potently in the "unknowable, fascinating mystery" situation they're stereotypically in.

Also, I'm just saying, Freud was so incredibly full of shit about so many things, especially sexuality, that I don't really think it's appropriate to bring him into the conversation.  I mean, fetishes were supposed to arise from the last thing one sees right before seeing the genitalia of the opposite sex for the first time, which is patently ridiculous.

[MaximumZero]

Indeed. I should be fetishizing...*thinks*...probably all kinds of household crap, but that's just not the case.

[Reudh]

Hmm, yeah... You all posit a good argument. Now I must mull on this. :/

[Osmosis Jones]

Also, I'm just saying, Freud was so incredibly full of shit about so many things, especially sexuality, that I don't really think it's appropriate to bring him into the conversation.  I mean, fetishes were supposed to arise from the last thing one sees right before seeing the genitalia of the opposite sex for the first time, which is patently ridiculous.

Yah, Freud's answers were pretty bad. The guy was obsessed with sex, and much of his stuff has since been thoroughly debunked. That said, he is rightly venerated because he was one of the first to try and describe psychological behaviours as the product of specific, testable causes; in effect, he helped introduce the scientific method to psychology. He also came up with a bunch of useful diagnostic techniques.

Also, while we're on Freud, here's what he thought about homosexuality.

I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your information about him. May I question you why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them. (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime –and a cruelty, too. If you do not believe me, read the books of Havelock Ellis.

By asking me if I can help [your son], you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way we cannot promise to achieve it. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no more possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.
What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line. If he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains homosexual or gets changed.