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Author Topic: Is being gay genetic or something else?  (Read 6330 times)

Sheb

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2012, 11:25:40 am »

Nospherat, you don't seem to understand how science works. Science is driven by sheer curiosity, not by results. Useful stuff is only a side-effect of science. Do you think that Pauli and Heisenberg were thinking of microprocessors when they discovered quantum theory? That Watson and Crick were thinking of GMOs when they discovered the structure of DNA?

Even in something is totally okay, we still want to know what causes it. That's why we've got a thread discussing it, even though everybody here agree that homosexuality is as valid as any other form of sexuality that take place between consenting adults, and no one want to cure gays.

Sure, knowing why gays are gays would probably be useless. Or maybe it would let to significant understanding of how the brain is influenced by genetics, which will cause breakthrough in mental medicine. (Please note that I don't thing being gay is a disease or anything like that.) Any way, it'll increase the amount of our knowledge, giving us a better understanding of the world, which is priceless.


P.S. Also, instead of asking what cause homosexuality, we should ask what determine one's sexual preferences. Much more open, interesting, and doesn't present homosexuality as "abnormal".
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 11:29:36 am by Sheb »
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Nospherat

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2012, 12:07:54 pm »

Point taken and well said.

But, being the stubborn ass that I am, I'm still clinging to two things.
-Scientific research as a whole, could use a way better "resource management"
-Sometimes researching the hell out of something, totally ruins it, and even worse, sometimes nothing is gained from it.
I'm not saying that we should have stopped at balancing the 4 humours and call it a day, but when I'm reading the daily newspaper only to find out that someone has founded a bunch of scientists only to find out if "men are more likely to pick up female hitchhikers with large breasts" or "what happens when you give bees cocaine".... uuuh... I just can't help but scratch my head.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2012, 12:17:39 pm »

There are ethical concerns as well. Hell, Michael Crichton made a living off of books with the moral "just because we can, doesn't mean we should." Jurassic Park, anyone? (kinda gets into space whale aesop territory when talking about dinosaurs, but whatever)


Concerning studying the brain and all that... While I'd love true virtual reality someday (think the Matrix), getting there means we'd have the knowledge to do other, less savory things like mind control. There's even grey area stuff; if we can put pictures into your head, we can definitely take them out. Grats, every type of visual art can be made digitally by anyone in an instant without very much time investment. There goes any sort of career or notability in the field.

Kinda off the rails since we're talking about sexuality, but again, just because we can figure out how to control it... should we? Many might say no.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 12:20:58 pm by kaijyuu »
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Sheb

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2012, 12:24:32 pm »

Oh, but you're talking about Social Scientists now, that's like totally different. :p Nah, just kidding.

More seriously, "better ressource management" means investing more in applied science and less on theoretical science. It may offer short-terms benefits, but you give up the hope of ground-breaking discoveries. There is only so much we can do with our current theorical framework. And you never know where you'll find interesting and useful stuff (other wise it wouldn't be research).

Also, be wary of judging research. For exemple, back in 2008, McCain used a program to find better way to freeze and store rat's sperm as an exemple of useless science. Surely we have better things to do with tax money than finding out of to put rat's semen in a freezer, right?

Except it's actually really useful: we got a lot of modified rat lines to simulate this or that genetic disorder or disease. Since scientists don't use those all the time, it's actually a way to store the genotype away when no one use them.

So yeah, surely the US got better things to put money in that to find out what makes people gay. But it doesn't mean that it's not interesting to know.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2012, 12:25:46 pm »

My main thought process when considering this is that if a trigger/system of triggers (genetic, environmental or otherwise) is found, then how to manipulate/expolit these triggers is a logical next step. Given how stong certain (undesirable?) political or religious groups view the whole hetero/homo debate, it is a possibility that people could have thier sexuality "engineered" against thier will, which IMHO is downright evil.

Bauglir

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2012, 12:51:14 pm »

I would recommend against reading the newspaper for science, since you're much more likely to read "Scientists spend $1000 dollars on hamster treadmill" than "Scientists spend negligible amounts of funding on a standardized instrument to quantify the relationship between exertion and blood glucose and how it interacts with dozens of additional variables".

I also take issue with the argument that knowing more about something can ruin it, unless the majority of its value was in the mystery. Knowing that air is made of atoms, thinly dispersed, that follow certain large-scale patterns of movement, does not make it any less air, does not make the symbolism assigned it any less meaningful, does not make it any less calming to breathe deeply for a few moments. None of those things have anything to do with the atoms, only the pattern of atoms we call wind. The same applies to thoughts, patterns arising in the brain (which is itself a pattern of neurons, and so on). I don't know about you, but the beauty of the mind to me is not in its mysterious nature, but in its complexity, its elegance, and its fundamental importance to defining what "I" means. If nothing else, I'd recommend against letting mystery dominate a thing's worth - every mystery, once solved, loses that value, and has it only while the solving is in progress. They're uninteresting if you let them sit unregarded, as much as once you complete them. So it's a self-defeating thing. Now, a lot of this paragraph is opinion, I do have to admit. But it just seems wrong to argue that learning something can be wrong. There can be things wrong with the method used, to be sure, and with how that knowledge is applied, but the knowledge itself is a different thing.

Now, there are unquestionably problems with how people frame this question in reality. A lot of the time, people want to use the answer as a defense for homosexuality, or as a means of "fixing" it. The former is a flawed approach because it amounts to the naturalistic fallacy (what is is what ought be), but at least they have the right conclusion in mind. The latter is flawed (moreso, in my opinion, and far more dangerously) because it's based on the assumption that there is only one correct sexuality, and nobody should have the freedom to vary from it, but at least they understand that knowledge isn't going to tell them what the course of action they should take is (they have already decided on a pretty horrific one and just want to learn how). What needs to be done is to address the ideas people come into the conversation with, because the problem is entirely there - with the decision by some people that some others are made less human by their sexuality. The question itself isn't to blame for that, it's something that gets asked after that decision.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Sheb

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2012, 01:04:20 pm »

Also, to everyone that think explaining some mysterious natural fact makes it less beautiful, I can only recommend reading Richard Dawkin's "Unweaving the Rainbow". He makes the point much better than me or Bauglir does, and goes a long way toward explaining why Science is also an aesthetic pursuit, and what makes a scientist's heart tick.
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Vattic

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2012, 01:11:55 pm »

I would recommend against reading the newspaper for science, since you're much more likely to read "Scientists spend $1000 dollars on hamster treadmill" than "Scientists spend negligible amounts of funding on a standardized instrument to quantify the relationship between exertion and blood glucose and how it interacts with dozens of additional variables".
Can't agree more here. The papers seem loathed to do good science reporting. It's a bit like how the Daily Mail are on a crusade to divide everything into "cure" or "cause" of cancer. They are often found furthering scares over things like inoculations or simply overstating tiny effects.

My main thought process when considering this is that if a trigger/system of triggers (genetic, environmental or otherwise) is found, then how to manipulate/expolit these triggers is a logical next step. Given how stong certain (undesirable?) political or religious groups view the whole hetero/homo debate, it is a possibility that people could have thier sexuality "engineered" against thier will, which IMHO is downright evil.
Ignoring the forced side of it I wonder what kind of response people would get for getting their sexual identity changed voluntarily. Is there any problem with a straight person deciding to become homosexual?
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Nospherat

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2012, 03:25:25 pm »

I also take issue with the argument that knowing more about something can ruin it, unless the majority of its value was in the mystery...

<snip>

You are right, you know it, the people here know it, hell, deep down inside even I know it.
I do not want to live in the dark ages, man, I don't want to believe that werewolves are eating the moon and that my teeth ache because of teeth demons.

However, I often, really quite often, feel that this world is nothing more than a... surgical theatre. An operating room. A data center. Nothing more than blunt facts, cold knowledge and a stupid race for survival. Working daily in your cubical, for your weekly amount of e-cash that you are looking forward to spend on food and internet connectivity.
All this while everyone tells me that love is actually pheromones, hormones and chemical imbalance, and that sexuality is nothing more than more hormones and generic phenotype attraction between opposed sexes, which sort of works like database query matching...

Well, hell no!
I love because I love. Because it's something indescribable and magically wondrous inside my soul.
And I lust, the way I lust, regardless of gender, because that's me. And It feels like butterflies in my stomach, which dag nab it, are not central nervous system response as a reaction to exterior stimuli.
It's magic. Because I want it to be magic. And in this bleak existence it's pretty much all I have.

And if I want to sparkle, I'll sparkle too, ok?  :D
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 03:28:31 pm by Nospherat »
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Sheb

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2012, 03:29:06 pm »

Well, it's not "just pheromones and stuff". That's like like looking at a forest and saying "It's just green stuff". The beauty is there, in the details, in the subtle, complex interplay of so many environmental, psychological, and yes, chemicals factors. After all, the chemical imbalance itself is just the product of something else, right?
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2012, 03:53:32 pm »

Yeah, I don't see impersonal, cold data when I understand how something works. Love might be a chemical reaction in your brain, when you get right down to it, but that doesn't mean it's 'just a chemical reaction', it means that that's how something amazing and awesome happens. Things don't lose their majesty once we explain them. I'm not less impressed with the sun because I know it can't possibly be a God. It is, as it turns out, a giant nuclear fusion reactor that radiated enough energy to facilitate the creation of life on Earth. The fact that we can tell you how and why doesn't remove the brilliance of it, it makes the fact that it happens that much more awesome, in the 'awe inspiring' sense.

Here's what we are. We're a delicate structure of nerves, tendons, muscles, veins and a million other things. And with those things we can love, think, discover, learn and change ourselves and the world around us. Just because we know how doesn't somehow cheapen that. You can't call it magic, because it's not, but it doesn't change or become lesser just because we aren't ignorant any more. We can still love, laugh, cry and wonder, that's still all there. And even if we know why we do those things, that doesn't make it any less brilliant. I can Goddamn love somebody. It's not magic. My body has the power to cause something as beautiful as love.

We're just that fucking rad.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 03:55:17 pm by Jackrabbit »
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Nospherat

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2012, 04:42:37 pm »

I see.
Well, different views, I guess.

So, as to draw a conclusion, after being immersed for a while in the Star Wars universe, and then suddenly finding out that The Force is caused by some bacterial infection, passed on by ticks, one is supposed to feel relieved, and all the Star Wars universe should suddenly seem a lot better.

Ok.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2012, 04:45:31 pm »

Luckily, the reality hasn't been conceived by Gorge Lucas, so the things you find when you look close enough are actually pretty amazing.
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Heron TSG

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2012, 04:56:07 pm »

On the other hand, Nospherat, pretty much everyone but George thinks that that explanation is stupid and doesn't make any sense.
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Lysabild

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Re: Is being gay genetic or something else?
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2012, 04:59:08 pm »

On the other hand, Nospherat, pretty much everyone but George thinks that that explanation is stupid and doesn't make any sense.

Apparently I'm the only one who didn't even care and if I'm forced to care I think it's rather alright.
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