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[GlyphGryph]

Because god damn, the derail in Vector's thread has gone on long enough. If you want to keep talking about it, do it here.

My view: It's more or less influenced by genetics, depending on the individual, and the reason it still exists despite natural selection is because its an acceptable variance in the population level genetic advantage conferred by whatever genes exert homosexual pressures in strongly homosexual individuals - in essence, despite the emergent behaviour leading to a reduction in procreation, the genetic cause of the emergent behaviour leads to increased fitness for the majority of organisms.

This is how a great many genetically influenced behaviours work.

Evidence its genetic:
Twin studies. Siblings growing up in the same environment, one of whom becomes strongly homosexual. The fact that homosexual people even exist despite the incredible environmental pressures against it. The lack of any evidence to the contrary aside from completely bullshit Evo Psych arguments.

Wouldn't natural selection remove the gay gene from the pool?

Genetics isn't that simple.

[palsch]

For the evolutionary question, here is a toy model showing how homosexuality could arise via evolutionary means. While it doesn't pretend to show how it actually arose, it does show that it's entirely plausible for even obligate homosexuality to exist.

[Bauglir]

I'd put my money on it arising from the interaction of many, many factors, ranging from environmental to genetic, most (if not all) of which are neither necessary nor sufficient individually. Of course, this is as close to an untestable hypothesis as possible, but given the diverse range of sexual preferences, I doubt it's simpler.

[Urist Mcinternetuser]

While I do think it is something you are born with I'm not sure that it is genetic... but then again other species have gay individuals so it might be. I don't really know, and why does it matter anyway?

I'd put my money on it arising from the interaction of many, many factors, ranging from environmental to genetic, most (if not all) of which are neither necessary nor sufficient individually. Of course, this is as close to an untestable hypothesis as possible, but given the diverse range of sexual preferences, I doubt it's simpler.

That's a good hypothesis. It covers all of the options.

[Bauglir]

Naw, I am pretty sure it is not the direct malevolence of Satan manifested into reality. That is an option I do not cover. But yes, anyway, the only answer anybody is likely to publicly endorse that is not covered is if it turns out to actually be something simple, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the question itself is a bit simplistic, in my opinion. Kind of like asking "What causes blue?" There's a lot of answers you can give, but no individual thing is actually going to be complete. It's a whole slew of things interacting in particular ways, some of which we don't understand yet, and in most cases the asker is going to go "Hang on, I didn't ask for your life's story, just answer the question".

[Lysabild]

Is bisexuality genetic too? Pansexuality? Transvestism? Is it genetical that I like cola? Is it genetical that some women like anal sex and some don't? When does this shit turn out to be just a fucking excuse for some people to be what their culture doesn't like?

Honestly, explain the cultures where homosexuality is -required- (Etoro and the Sambia of New Guinea, for some examples.)

Why some men like men is like asking why some men like cars. Why do some people love playing computer games? Why aren't they playing football? Life has simply formed them as they are.

Why do I like guys? Because I like how some guys look, I like how it's a little 'wrong' in my culture, because I like the role two men loving each other play in stories and real life, and for tons of other reasons, all coming from experiences, lessons and my culture. I don't have a gene that gives me a boner for guys, if that was the case I wouldn't be so picky with who I like.

[DJ]

My completely citationless observation is that homosexuality occurs more frequently in "higher" species, ie ones who's behaviour is more learned than instinctual. I certainly haven't heard much about gay insects. If this is indeed true, it would strongly suggest that homosexuality isn't primarily genetic.

[Criptfeind]

I'm pretty sure that homosexual beetles have always been one of the go to species for examples of homosexual species other then humans. And monkeys. But. Eh.

Anyway, I have no opinion on the actually topic, since it seems less something for random people to talk about and more something that for any actual results you would need scientists doing science.

[The Fool]

@Lysabild: Yes, there is also the possibility that it's socially constructed. However the likes of sexes is socially created by what a society expects from them. What their trying to get at is of what causes the attraction in the first place, not the preference of one sex over another.

@DJ: Homosexuality occurs with many creatures including dogs, and dolphins as well as humans. It isn't a matter of a species being 'higher' than another.

[DJ]

I'd consider mammals in general to be "higher" animals.

[Vattic]

My completely citationless observation is that homosexuality occurs more frequently in "higher" species, ie ones who's behaviour is more learned than instinctual. I certainly haven't heard much about gay insects. If this is indeed true, it would strongly suggest that homosexuality isn't primarily genetic.

Not a natural example but fruit flies can be made to prefer same sex partners with the modification of a single gene.

[Lysabild]

@Lysabild: Yes, there is also the possibility that it's socially constructed. However the likes of sexes is socially created by what a society expects from them. What their trying to get at is of what causes the attraction in the first place, not the preference of one sex over another.

The same thing that makes some people fap to poo and some to breasts.

[Capntastic]

While I've heard good arguments for either side of the issue, the problem with "is gay genetic?" is that no matter what the answer is, people can use that stance to claim that a homosexual's lifestyle is incorrect.  If it's the result of biology, then they can be denigrated as, basically, mutants.  If it's brought about by upbringing, then people will be there to argue that they've been psychologically damaged and need to be reprogrammed.  Further, even if it was a conscious choice on par with "do I like Ninja Turtles or Transformers more", people will write off homosexuals entirely as having made the incorrect choice.

So, while it is important to know what 'causes' homosexuality purely for whatever insights into sexuality and biology they provide, that knowledge, in a modern day context, can and will be used to punish homosexuals.  The knowledge itself isn't going to be a road towards tolerance.

[Svarte Troner]

I hate when people say that people choose to be gay, then you hear about some gay person killing themselves for being gay. I guess you could say I believe homosexuality is mostly genetic.

[Neonivek]

I hate when people say that people choose to be gay, then you hear about some gay person killing themselves for being gay. I guess you could say I believe homosexuality is mostly genetic.

It is what makes me sort of unnerved about these discussions. There really is no "correct" answer and people will give you the weirdest looks of rage.

My own observations is that the definition of sexuality is interestingly weak. To the point where to properly have this discussion I would have asked the person to define even homosexuality.