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Author Topic: Build Order  (Read 970 times)

MAurelius

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Build Order
« on: January 06, 2012, 09:54:01 pm »

In competitive games such as Starcraft the expert players have what's called a build order - that is, they maybe produce x amount of peasants, then x amount of farms, etc. with the goal being to more efficiently set up yourself to combat your enemy.

I noticed that I have a build order problem when it comes to DF. I routinely have massive multi story walls guarding the whole embark before my dwarves even had bedrooms (however lacking a closeable gate...sigh). My last fort, which was such a beautiful embark I though it was *the one* had nearly 100 dwarves before I even began the great hall and bedrooms. I had a wall of siltstone around the entire 4X5 embark, which went up and down z levels as the mountain did. However, since I hadn't found magma or done anything with metal, and all the wild animals and animal-men filled up my cage traps, the first goblin ambush pretty much wiped me out.

Considering before the game even starts I spend tons of time planning out the entire fort (strategically blocking off hallways to keep my miners focused, barely, on more pressing things) every time I lose in a stupid way like that is a blow. I literally spend half an hour staring at my embark just to choose where would be the best place to put the main entrance.

Soooo.... I need help. What do y'all do to get settled? What's your "build order"? Do you build bedrooms right away or wait til you hit stone? Do you wait til all the loose stone is dumped before you furnish? (You can't build on loose stone, right?) Is one farmer enough or do you bring two? 2 miners enough or is 3 better? I never bring any experienced miners because they learn on the job and that way I can spend the points on leadership skills and broker skills which are far harder to train.

I'm gonna start playing Genesis, which I know is much more difficult, so I need to up my game, so to speak. I'd appreciate any response from something as simple as a top 10 list (in order) of what you do first to, if you're so inclined, a more detailed explanation of your play strategy and set up. You see, I'm very experienced, but not very *good*.

Thanks!
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NecroRebel

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 11:27:26 pm »

I never build anything in soil if I can help it. I blatantly cheat and use Reveal to find a suitable location where I can build a fort without going into soil or breaching any caverns, then dig straight there once my first picks are done. I also typically don't bring a skilled farmer and in fact don't usually start farming until the first winter. A migrant wave usually provides. In addition, since mining trains quickly, I don't waste points on it, but I usually make 4 picks and have my leader, doctor, mason, and furnace operator until those skills are actually needed and/or I have useless migrants to take up their picks.

Do note that you don't have to clear stones out of the way with dump orders or anything. A dwarf who is building a building, such as a workshop or any piece of furniture, will just move any items that are in the way, including stones, out of the way. I usually don't start dumping waste stones until 5 or 6 years into a fort because their presence is nothing but an aesthetic issue, and not even for the dwarves, either.

Anyway, as far as my build order:
First comes a large chamber that is a temporary everything stockpile just to get things off the wagon, and will eventually be where the trade depot and trade goods stockpile will be. Once that's dug out, digging goes on hold until everything is inside.
Next comes a space for workshops. I tend to put my workshops in clusters of 4 or 8, with stockpiles above and below them for associated materials. This early, though, I just dig out the workshops themselves, not the storage.
Third is a few bedrooms, usually 12 or 16 since these also tend to be in clusters of 4 or 8. These are only furnished with beds. At least some of these aren't actually made into bedrooms, either, but are left as free beds that anyone can use.
Fourth varies, but is usually the dining hall and its attached food and drink stockpiles. These all go in the center of the fort and everything else is arranged radially around it, so it's convenient to dig them out and then spread from there.
Fifth varies even more, but it's usually around this time that I start digging a place for farms. Since my farms are almost always quite deep underground and I dislike putting them outside whatever the fort's design is, the farms usually aren't where the standard murky pool muddying method works conveniently, so I have to arrange a more complicated measuring system to get enough water to muddy the whole farm but not so much that it doesn't evaporate or flood more than I want it to.
Next is usually more bedrooms or workshops, maybe some stockpile space, but often it's at this time that I go for magma, digging out the casing for a pump stack to carry magma up to where the metalworks will eventually go.

After all that... Well, I have the basics, so I just dig things out as they're needed, or if nothing is needed just to keep the miners busy. I'm very willing to put workshops in corridors or in the dining hall early on, and I usually have nothing to trade the first caravan except for the stuff my first two soldiers (who are given ambusher skill on embark) were wearing and maybe a spare axe or two. Often I run out of food or booze during the first winter if it took especially long to get the farm set up, but I've not had any forts starve out due to this, since I can just slaughter the draft animals for extra meat.
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MAurelius

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 11:57:10 pm »

If you designate a stockpile over loose stones, will the stockpile be everywhere or just the uncovered areas (like when you stockpile over trees)?

Necro, your farming method sounds really complicated compared to just setting up a plot in a soil layer. But if it works for you, that's cool.

Your magma strategy intrigues me. I usually dig down to magma sea and create a burrow down there with it's own bedrooms and dining hall for my smelters, glass, and metal guys. I let the peasants carry all the stuff between them. ;) I have never used a pump stack primarily because it seems a) the amount of work to connect them all with a power source using gear assemblies seems a bit much and b) to power magma up to near the surface (your main fort) how much power must you have? Seems like using the numbers I got from the wiki you'd need dozens of windmills or water wheels to generate that much power, and you lose some by connecting them all as gears use power too, right? But assuming I'm wrong and one is easy to set up (notwithstanding having to "thread the needle" through the gaps in the caverns), how do you do it and how much power do you use?

Also, even though I'm getting a bit more specific with NecroRebel, I'd still love if anyone else shared their starting strategy.

Thanks!
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NecroRebel

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 12:16:15 am »

If you designate a stockpile over loose stones, will the stockpile be everywhere or just the uncovered areas (like when you stockpile over trees)?

The stockpile will be everywhere, but some things take up a full tile and other things that take up a full tile won't be stacked on top of them. Unfortunately, stones are one of those things that take a full tile, so only loose trinkets will be stocked on tiles with stones, so if your stockpile is totally covered in stones, your dwarves won't put things in bins. Of course, if you're starting with unskilled miners, at least your first stockpile won't be completely covered in stones, and by the time you really need other piles you can just throw the rocks that are over that pile alone into a dump rather than dumping every stone in the whole fort.

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Necro, your farming method sounds really complicated compared to just setting up a plot in a soil layer. But if it works for you, that's cool.
It is more complicated, and it takes longer, too. I use it for aesthetic purposes more than anything else, though it also helps with efficiency somewhat to have everything in the same general area.

Also, sometimes I end up just making the irrigation system also be where my hospital's water supply comes from, so that kills two birds with one stone :P

Quote
Your magma strategy intrigues me. I usually dig down to magma sea and create a burrow down there with it's own bedrooms and dining hall for my smelters, glass, and metal guys. I let the peasants carry all the stuff between them. ;) I have never used a pump stack primarily because it seems a) the amount of work to connect them all with a power source using gear assemblies seems a bit much and b) to power magma up to near the surface (your main fort) how much power must you have? Seems like using the numbers I got from the wiki you'd need dozens of windmills or water wheels to generate that much power, and you lose some by connecting them all as gears use power too, right? But assuming I'm wrong and one is easy to set up (notwithstanding having to "thread the needle" through the gaps in the caverns), how do you do it and how much power do you use?
Well, I typically don't find magma more than ~30 levels below where I want the bottom of my fort, and I'm alright with putting the magmaworks on the bottom, so even on very deep maps I don't need more pumps than that. That's only 4-5 water wheels, and a water reactor right down there at the bottom provides the power for it. Water wheels are vastly more efficient on a power:resources or size standpoint, so I only very rarely use windmills. Also, I prefer to leave the surface mostly pristine, so having windmills sticking out up there is ugly, too.

With the cavern settings I use, I can almost always find a straight shot down through at least 2 of the 3, and I try to put my fort directly above one of those places. I don't mind having to construct the stack's casing if necessary, though I avoid it if I can. You'd be surprised how easy it is to find the space needed to make a pump stack without intercepting the caverns at all; it's not always there, but it is more often than you'd expect.

Also, I typically eventually end up making a magma trap nearer to the surface, and having a route for the magma to be brought most of the way up makes that much more convenient. It saves me from needing so many haulers to drag ores down and finished metal armor up and makes it easier for me to keep track of my whole fort if everything is relatively close by. I usually have a hotkey for every 2 z-levels of the fort proper so I can easily zip to wherever I want to look at, but if I had my magmaworks down by the magma sea that hotkey wouldn't really help with that.
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MAurelius

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 09:03:06 pm »

Thanks Necro! Guess no one else wants to play.
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Nan

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2012, 09:59:26 pm »

In a way DF is not like other strategy games.

In most games, you start with a kernel or seed, which then grows into your entire base.

In DF, while you do start with a kernel, the starting 7 and embark supplies, your population grows much faster by immigration than by exponential growth of the kernel (and while dwarves do multiply exponentially, they do so incredibly slowly relative to the pace of the game).

Furthermore, whereas in most games, your enemies come in either predetermined waves, OR, start with a similar kernel which grows into their base, and produces attack waves.  This results in a race, either against the escalating attack waves, or to out-grow your competitors.
However in DF, the enemy attack waves are pegged to the size of your fortress. This almost completely eliminates the race, it's equally viable to grow slowly as it is to grow quickly.

Usually the point of the build order, is to help you "win the race", it allows you to grow quickly enough and produce enough defenses to defeat your opponents. In DF, the only important thing is that your development is balanced, your ability to defend the fortress needs to be proportional to it's wealth.

In DF the concepts of "builds" is very valid, "build order", not so much so. DF is simply not a game where optimization matters much, and this is because the enemies strength is pegged to your own wealth.

Still. I would say that generally in DF, because it's relatively easier to train civilian skills than military skills (Barring danger rooms), the optimal build order, is to initially invest in military (starting 7, embark supplies and first season's work), and then, using the immigrants, invest in economy. This will tend to be a stronger more robust strategy than doing things the other way around.
The other highly legitimate approach is to just invest in all military all the time. This will greatly improve the robustness of your fortress against being destroyed. So dispense with absolutely all investment which isn't directly related to equipping, training, feeding, keeping happy and protecting your military. This approach works pretty well in all games where there is a choice and DF is no exception.

As a more specific build description, my fortresses are generally arranged around the principle of one big room with everything in it, since this tends to be most efficient in terms of frame rate and most other things which matter (cleverly designed 3-dimensional fortresses can have shorter average paths for dwarves to take, but greatly increase path-finding complexity).

First Season:
Equip starting military (DIY smithing) and have them start training (while they are waiting for their equipment to be forged, if they can't directly contribute to that, then they cut down trees and haul the logs), dig out a 10x10 room in the dirt for initial workshop and living area, furnish it with 7 beds along a wall and a table and a chair.
Second Season:
Pierce aquifer (I always play on maps with aquifers), dig down to magma sea and dig out a small room enough for a magma smelter, forge and some extra room for stockpiles.
Massively expand the room in the dirt layer, to quickly train my miner(s) to legendary. Usually I dig it out with upstairs first, then remove the upstairs. This trains significantly faster than straight mining.
Because most of my dwarves are in the military, the non-military dwarves are generally pretty busy just keeping the fortress running, and having nice long On Break's. So other than little things like brewing, not much gets done.
Third Season:
The coming of immigration waves means more labor. The immigrants replace my weaponsmith and armorsmith on menial tasks, take up jobs like masonry and mechanics, and are particularly helpful for hauling. With my legendary miner I dig out some metal veins and start smelting and forging operations at the magma sea. I might train up a second miner in dirt if I only have one miner.
I set up a larger "Bed chamber", which for me is a tiny room wrapped around the central staircase, with a smoothed and engraved floor, stuffed full of beds which are turned into 1x1 bedrooms. The only beds left in the dirt room, are the military beds.
By now my military will be fast enough (Thanks to sparring training) to run down wildlife, which effectively stocks my larders with meat (have many butchershops and many dwarves with butcher profession enabled)
The caravan arrives. Normally I have nothing much to trade it, so I whip up something quick at the forge, like serrated silver disks. Or I offload junk like mechanisms used to train up a mechanic, or biscuits used to train up a cook. I am primarily interested in metal bars, valuable gems, barrels and buckets, perhaps some armor, leather, cloth, anvils, perhaps food, plants (for brewing), thread, splints and crutches.
Forth Season:
At this point the immigrants start to feel a bit surplus to requirements, so I start militarization of the workforce. Many dwarves are put into squads.


The final result of my fortress, is a very large room in the dirt, a long staircase (with a little bedchamber halfway along it), and another large room at the bottom. I build a large dining area at the bottom so that my idlers mostly hang out in the depths. The top is where my psychopathic elite military reside, along with farming related industries.
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Quietust

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2012, 10:11:02 pm »

If you designate a stockpile over loose stones, will the stockpile be everywhere or just the uncovered areas (like when you stockpile over trees)?

The stockpile will be everywhere, but some things take up a full tile and other things that take up a full tile won't be stacked on top of them. Unfortunately, stones are one of those things that take a full tile, so only loose trinkets will be stocked on tiles with stones, so if your stockpile is totally covered in stones, your dwarves won't put things in bins.
This is not true.

Stockpiles hold exactly 1 item per tile - if there's anything there (whether a boulder, a ring, or a dead roach), then no item can be stockpiled on that tile. Containers, however, are special - when a container gets assigned to a stockpile, it gets placed in a specific tile even if there's something else there, which is why food and finished goods stockpiles typically don't need to be cleared out before being used.
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MAurelius

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2012, 10:12:28 pm »

Nan,

I really dig your military and training up miners strategies.

I don't know if I'd want to be all military, all the time but it definitely gives me something to think about.

So to be clear you start with roughly 3 military, a couple miners, and 2 other, or does every one of the seven you start with have military skills? I have experimented with starting with one military dwarf but he can't really train by himself and I can only afford leather at embark so aside from hunting wildlife he's dead weight. I have also begun starting with three miners rather than the default 2 as there is never enough miners at the beginning.

Do you ever have problems with moods? I like to enclose all my workshops with doors so I can lock a dwarf in before he goes crazy and kills someone/ruins my furniture.
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MAurelius

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2012, 10:16:00 pm »

[Sorry for the double post, but I was replying to separate things by two separate folks, one which came after I finished the first post - I'll just edit posts in the future - :( ]

Quietust,

Thanks for the contribution. What I meant was, even if the tile is currently occupied with a stone, when that stone is (eventually) removed, will the stockpile designation still be there under it? This is in contrast to trees, which "break" a stockpile placed over them, and if you remove the tree it's blank ground.

I gathered from Necro's feedback that it does stay there, and when the boulder is removed the dwarves will begin putting what should be there, um, there.

So you are saying that a bin can be placed on a stockpile tile with a boulder but nothing else? Good to know, thanks!
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kardwill

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 05:21:48 am »

So you are saying that a bin can be placed on a stockpile tile with a boulder but nothing else? Good to know, thanks!

A bin or a barrel. You don't have to clear food stockpiles if you use barrels to store food. So if you use containers, the stockpiles that need to be cleared are mostly furniture, ore, wood, mechanisms/siege and cage.
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Nan

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 05:44:03 am »

Nan,

I really dig your military and training up miners strategies.

I don't know if I'd want to be all military, all the time but it definitely gives me something to think about.
It's somewhat unnecessary in the base game, unless you want to conquer HFS. Although in Fortress Defense mod, this kind of strategy becomes more relevant to survival.

Quote
So to be clear you start with roughly 3 military, a couple miners, and 2 other, or does every one of the seven you start with have military skills? I have experimented with starting with one military dwarf but he can't really train by himself and I can only afford leather at embark so aside from hunting wildlife he's dead weight.

I always go with pairs of military, because pairs train via sparring much more quickly than other options. There are pros and cons to the possibilities:
2 military: 5 civilians is enough for a miner, a farmer, an armorsmith, a mason, a carpenter - enough to reasonably round out your civilian workforce. 2 military is an excellent safety net against failure of other defenses (ie random intrusion of cavern life, berserk dwarves or merchants etc) and is enough to destroy ambushes and perhaps minor sieges by themselves. It really makes the game easier.
4 military: 3 civilians is enough for a miner, weaponsmith and armorsmith. 4 elite soldiers allows you to double your firepower, or cover your bases. I generally find this a good compromise.
6 military: 1 civilian is only enough for a farmer (the military forge their own gear and get to training ASAP, while #7 takes care of their needs). Usually my first full-time miner will be an immigrant. 6 elite military is a devastating force in and of itself.

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I have also begun starting with three miners rather than the default 2 as there is never enough miners at the beginning.

I actually most often only embark with 1 miner, but occasionally 2. The trick, is to train the miner to legendary ASAP, he/she will then carve out rock MUCH faster. You also get full yield from veins. And it allows another dwarf to specialize in something else. One way to look at this, is by having one miner do all mining all the time, he will get legendary faster than having more miners which might be spending some time doing other things (miner+secondary skill - is a sub-optimal choice!). I always find one legendary miner to be enough, but I train up extras as spares because my miners do enjoy dying.

Quote
Do you ever have problems with moods? I like to enclose all my workshops with doors so I can lock a dwarf in before he goes crazy and kills someone/ruins my furniture.
Almost never. For a start I manipulate moods by putting a lot of dwarves with useless moodable skills into the military full-time so they can't mood. Generally I try to get as many smithing moods as I can by having dwarves without a moodable skill, do a little metalsmithing (leaning towards weaponsmithing, because artifact weapons are cool). I make a point of getting all the metal bars the dwarven caravan has to offer, along with other stuff like raw glass, expensive gemstones, all kinds of cloth. I order every kind of leather from the liaison (because you get heaps, it's good for training up leatherworking)... so usually my dwarves who mood, find what they want. If they don't... remember those elite military squads? ;)
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Imp

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 12:53:43 pm »

I routinely have massive multi story walls guarding the whole embark before my dwarves even had bedrooms (however lacking a closeable gate...sigh).... I had a wall of siltstone around the entire 4X5 embark, which went up and down z levels as the mountain did. However, since I hadn't found magma or done anything with metal, and all the wild animals and animal-men filled up my cage traps, the first goblin ambush pretty much wiped me out.

It sounds like you lean towards defensiveness and traps instead training up military and taking the offense to your attackers; wether you prefer your style or wish you played differently I am less certain of.

I tend towards a defensive style too.  You mentioned reaching 100ish dwarves, so I believe you dont need any real help in 'environmental survival', you're not mentioning tantruming or starvation troubles - so however imperfectly you are pleasing your brood, they seem happy enough!  If the dwarves are able to wait for the best things in life, and you want them to wait, then waiting is very much on the agenda.

You seem to rely on cage traps, I tend to too.  You mentioned yours filling up... mine do too, so I empty them.   My favorite way to murder relatively helpless beasts involves whatever military I have stationed in a fairly large room with an animal stockpile covering most of it and a single built cage across the room.  The room isn't in sight of most of my fortress.  A kill everything in the area of the room order is given, and then some hapless non-military dwarf gets to try and drag the critters from their trap cages to the built cage while the gathered miltary gets to try and dismember them one by one.  Even if every beast makes it alive to the cage, what was once many full cage traps has become many empty ones, with all my remaining beasts trapped within only one.

Then too, if your fortress is almost or totally out of 'logs', elves, humans, and dwarf caravans will all struggle to resupply you with a huge amount, from which you can continue to make as many cage traps as you need.  I've had a single caravan bring me more than 70 logs before, when I had no logs available.  To keep a major increase of extra wood flowing in if you cannot use it all between caravans, have most of your fortress work on builing some sort of temporary construction with it - as long as the wood is not sitting free, the caravans will think you need more, and then you can quickly dismantle chunks as needed later - while still having whatever forests you started with largely intact as another emergency (and possibly out of reach when you need it) stash.

But my favorite defenses are designed traps, not just the coded in traps.  You sound like a designer :)  Falling traps are probably the easiest to start with.  Sometimes I wall off a large section of the site and then, from within the safety of my walls, design a snaking path usually three tiles wide that twists perhaps 150+ tiles in length.  It's floored by a series of bridges connected to the same lever, and it often leads to a 1-z level drop into a sealed (and openable) area also floored by a series of bridges, and this area is often above a 10-z drop.  A catch trap above, a kill trap below, and separate levers to control them both, as well as a few side passages into them... the whys for the different passages and where they go becomes apparent as you use strategies like this, based what you see of how squad leaders and squad members try to path when they are blocked and separated from their goals.

I recommend you experiment with bridges, they are for me the core of closable gates, and are no harder to make then walls.  In fact, they can serve as walls (on the side they rise away from), if you use rising bridges (you set the direction when you start to build the bridge, and no matter how long the bridge is, once risen it is only 1-z high).  You can do an entire labrynth with bridges and levers if you wanted, a shifting trap that changes greatly with two or three lever pulls, the entrances and exits can suddenly be dozens or more squares from where they had been, both from the outside into the labrynth, and from the labrynth into your fortress proper.  Your poor attackers can spend any amount of time you want simply running to get in (and eventually running to try and get out again, even if you never hurt them, after a while they give up and just want to get away)

For attackers to large for a bridge to function when it stands upon them, I usually close my primary entrances entirely.  I offer a second entrance (normally sealed) for that sort of invader, a constructed staircase climbing 10-z skywards, with a long and twisted path formed from bridges touching each other, with the innermost bridges touching only other bridges.  Only the bridges that touch the staircase will be connected to a lever, and that lever will carefully be pulled at a time when the behemoth has crossed off of the connected bridge - which wouldn't function if a heavy beast was still on it.  The monster rushes ahead and the triggered bridges are free to fall away, leaving the rest of the bridges unsupported.  They deconstruct in air, and rain harmless single stones down upon the ground - and the monster falls and goes smash unless it's lucky enough to land upon something else alive.  Course, you have to reconstruct the inner bridges each time you wish to use the trap, but there's nothing to stop you from preparing a multitude of these false entrances ahead of time for when you need them faster than they can be rebuilt.

Even though mining trains quickly, I find those stones Very Useful.  I start with 7 miners, 5 points in mining for each of them, and I do begrudge the stones wasted in mining errors.  I can enjoy using thousands of stones in building elaborate constructed traps, and prefer my miners to be faster and less wasteful of stone from the very start.
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MAurelius

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 01:53:08 pm »

Then too, if your fortress is almost or totally out of 'logs', elves, humans, and dwarf caravans will all struggle to resupply you with a huge amount, from which you can continue to make as many cage traps as you need.  I've had a single caravan bring me more than 70 logs before, when I had no logs available.  To keep a major increase of extra wood flowing in if you cannot use it all between caravans, have most of your fortress work on builing some sort of temporary construction with it - as long as the wood is not sitting free, the caravans will think you need more, and then you can quickly dismantle chunks as needed later - while still having whatever forests you started with largely intact as another emergency (and possibly out of reach when you need it) stash.

See, this is the kind of lateral thinking I need to train myself to be better at. This is a great idea. Build a little "burning man" statue with excess wood so the caravans will keep bringing it and you can take off a piece when you need. Brilliant.

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NecroRebel

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2012, 03:06:05 pm »

Actually, if you just forbid wood, the caravans won't consider it as being in your stocks and will thus come with more. Somewhat easier than building possibly-giant wooden structures that serve no purpose, and since reclaiming is instant where deconstructing isn't, it's more convenient to get wood on demand if it's just forbidden.
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guitarxe

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Re: Build Order
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 03:14:06 pm »

For a more "traditional" build order as it relates to mainstream strategy games, have you taken a look at the quick start guide on the wiki?
Should help you decide what to build in which order.
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