Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 226 227 [228] 229 230 ... 625

Author Topic: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)  (Read 960805 times)

Tellemurius

  • Bay Watcher
  • Positively insane Tech Thaumaturgist
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3405 on: October 13, 2012, 02:32:07 pm »

Wait her name is Cookie? lol i can already hear the rookie chatter :P

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3406 on: October 13, 2012, 02:32:25 pm »

Kagus, from what I understand the aliens do actually move around the map as part of a group and can slip behind your units without being noticed. They just tend to move as groups of aliens rather than individual aliens.

I think some aliens can do a sort of ambush thing though, and move to somewhere or appear somewhere.
Logged

jocan2003

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3407 on: October 13, 2012, 02:36:23 pm »

The way i see it is the group dont move per see, it teleport between point A-B-C-D-E patrol point around a central location, and sometime that teleport leads them STRAIGHT in the middle of your squad, but since it was a teleport and not a move well... you know what now.
Logged
Quote from: LoSboccacc
that was a luky dwarf. I had one dabbling surgeon fail so spectacularly that the patient skull flew a tile away from the table.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
DF doesn't mold players into its image - DF merely selects those who were always ready for DF.
Quote from: Girlinhat
Minecraft UI is very simple. There's only so many ways you can implement "simple" without copying something. We also gonna complain that it uses WASD?

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3408 on: October 13, 2012, 02:42:24 pm »

Enemies don't just sit there and wait for you to get them.  Several times I've had groups of enemies moving across the map to examine frozen bodies, without knowing I'm there.
Logged
Shoes...

Tarran

  • Bay Watcher
  • Kind of back, but for how long?!
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3409 on: October 13, 2012, 02:47:52 pm »

Several times I've had groups of enemies moving across the map to examine frozen bodies, without knowing I'm there.
And I've definitely had a Cyberdisk crash through a window and stumble upon my flanks before. It wasn't fun. :P
Logged
Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

Puzzlemaker

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3410 on: October 13, 2012, 02:49:48 pm »

I had a hilarious moment where a group of mutons decided to walk out of the door where I had two of my assault guys, both with the perk that lets them take a reaction shot at anyone who gets close.  One had a shotgun.  Plus the sniper I had on overwatch.  And maybe a few others too.

When there are 3+ reaction shots, the game just zooms out and shows them all at the same time, which can lead to some hilarious moments where your entire squad opens fire on a poor sap who just walked out into the wrong place.  Or in this case, three poor saps.

If you get the ghost armor, you can cloak and run about, watching the aliens wander around doing their thing.
Logged
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.

Virtz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3411 on: October 13, 2012, 02:59:39 pm »

It's dumbed down because the basics are way less detailed and emergent than the original. You have no real inventory, instead you choose a really limited loadout that prevents soldiers from taking more than 1 grenade or 1 medkit unless they get some equally gamey class-based upgrade.

I'll admit that the old Xcom allowed for much more flexible loadouts. I'll also admit that spending five minutes ordering my men to acquire SANE loadouts, every time, was a huge pain. I remember more than one time arriving on the field to discover that instead of one rifle, one pistol, and two clips per man, my troops had decided on more interesting loadouts, such as one soldier carrying three rifles and no bullets, another one with a pistol and a pile of rifle ammo...

Yeah, I might wax nostalgic for the old days of carrying two grenades, but I don't think I'll go back.
Ok. Stop. You're implying that rearranging the inventory per mission is an integral part of having a real inventory system. It's not. Even in Apocalypse the equipment layouts were soldier specific, so it remained in between missions. Only issue left by Apocalypse, which could've been easily solved, was that ammo didn't automatically refill from base storage post-mission. Nobody's saying to clone the system, all issues included. We've learned a lot since the early 90s that wasn't just dumbing down. You can fix these issues.

The strategic layer is very gimped, as the aliens no longer act with purpose, but instead are just there to get fought off by you when the script deems it appropriate.
Did they 'act with purpose' in the old one? As I recall, scouts and battleships and whatnot tended to just wander around. I mean, they had those ten mission types, but they all boiled down to "Fly around a bit, land maybe." Doesn't really matter whether it's labelled an abduction mission or resource mining or what. None of them fulfilled any strategic objective. Even the supply ships did not, in fact, carry supplies- You could shoot them down all your wanted and it'd nerve starve out the alien base. Heck, you could interrogate everyone onboard and not get the base's location.

Even moreso on the tactical map, where 90% of the time you'd just fine snakemen moseying through random fields of grass. The aliens never really had any sense of tactics or any real objectives.
You could follow a supply ship to an alien base. Can you do that here? And more than that, the point is their activities really happened in the world, they weren't randomly generated when the game decided to give you something to do. For example, in this game, I got a VIP mission. The first time it was a scientist escort. Then I reloaded and now it was a politician arrest. The mission wasn't the result of what the aliens were doing, but was simply randomly generated when x amount of days passed.

Also, note that I said "strategic layer". They're not really doing anything significant in the tactical map in either case. Like in the original they just wandered around and at most shot at civilians. Here they just stand around some spots and give you a shitty cutscene when they enter your FOV. Then again, you'd think they'd drop what they're doing when they see a Skyranger landing nearby and start hearing gunfire.

There is nothing intuitively realistic about the Simoleon prices in the strategic layer, they're all really nonsensical for the sake of balance. There's a slew of oddities and limitations only there to introduce balance to X-Com features broken by streamlining (such as explosives that liquidate weapon fragments).

Were prices ever realistic? 500,000 dollars for an interceptor is incredibly low. Even 1970's aircraft cost four times that, according to my incredibly unscientific ten second wikipedia search that could easily be inaccurate. I don't mind the elimination of all the extra zeroes anyway.
The point is proportions. A power generator facility or a satellite should not cost as much as manufacturing 4 medkits. Just for reference, in X-Com, a medkit cost 28k to produce. The cheapest facility, storage, cost 150k, and that was basically a hole in the ground, whereas most other facilities cost 400k+.

Don't get me wrong, the original's proportions (and especially quantities) were questionable, but not anywhere near as fucking bad as this. "XCOM, you're our first and last line of defence! Here's your monthly allowance. You can make 3 medkits with this. Now fuck off.".
Logged

wrwr

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3412 on: October 13, 2012, 03:13:33 pm »

Just watched a "let's play" on Youtube and no, I'm not impressed by this product.

Send me a link to that let's play, im interested to know how horrible he is ( most likely me... )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgYU2VGqyGg

They play a review copy they got directly from the publisher. Might get a bit boring if you don't speak German. They talk far too much and fail at basic strategy. But you can see pretty much every detail of the gameplay.
Logged

jocan2003

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3413 on: October 13, 2012, 03:24:12 pm »

Ahh thank you.
Logged
Quote from: LoSboccacc
that was a luky dwarf. I had one dabbling surgeon fail so spectacularly that the patient skull flew a tile away from the table.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
DF doesn't mold players into its image - DF merely selects those who were always ready for DF.
Quote from: Girlinhat
Minecraft UI is very simple. There's only so many ways you can implement "simple" without copying something. We also gonna complain that it uses WASD?

umiman

  • Bay Watcher
  • Voice Fetishist
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3414 on: October 13, 2012, 03:25:37 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Booyah! Now I join the 0.1% of people who've beaten Classic Iron Man!

Edit: Also, does anyone know what those other achievements are for? Disaster Averted, Saved to Savior, No Sweat, Rising Dragon, etc.

BuriBuriZaemon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3415 on: October 13, 2012, 03:27:42 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Booyah! Now I join the 0.1% of people who've beaten Classic Iron Man!

Knowing how hard Classis is without save-scumming, well done good sir!
Logged
Napalm is great if you enjoy hot and spicy foods. I personally enjoy some liquid nitrogen.

Steam profile: Elsior
Friend Code: 2938 - 7181 - 3815 (Elsior/Elle Ciel)

umiman

  • Bay Watcher
  • Voice Fetishist
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3416 on: October 13, 2012, 03:29:06 pm »

It was crazy hard. I was literally down to one guy in the final room.

Urist McSpike

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3417 on: October 13, 2012, 03:33:25 pm »

It's dumbed down because the basics are way less detailed and emergent than the original. You have no real inventory, instead you choose a really limited loadout that prevents soldiers from taking more than 1 grenade or 1 medkit unless they get some equally gamey class-based upgrade.

I sort of agree with this, but would also argue the point.  Yep, you get 4 slots - armor, main weapon, secondary weapon, misc.  Yep, miscellaneous means "1 grenade" or "1 medkit" or "1 health booster".  But limiting the slots from the original does two big things - it makes you optimize your squad, and it helps the devs balance the game (probably more for multiplayer).  Yes, I like the way you could customize load-outs in the original, like someone mentioned about rocket teams, with a shooter & an ammo carrier.  But I think this system works.

The strategic layer is very gimped, as the aliens no longer act with purpose, but instead are just there to get fought off by you when the script deems it appropriate.
Did they 'act with purpose' in the old one? As I recall, scouts and battleships and whatnot tended to just wander around. I mean, they had those ten mission types, but they all boiled down to "Fly around a bit, land maybe." Doesn't really matter whether it's labelled an abduction mission or resource mining or what. None of them fulfilled any strategic objective. Even the supply ships did not, in fact, carry supplies- You could shoot them down all your wanted and it'd nerve starve out the alien base. Heck, you could interrogate everyone onboard and not get the base's location.

Even moreso on the tactical map, where 90% of the time you'd just fine snakemen moseying through random fields of grass. The aliens never really had any sense of tactics or any real objectives.
You could follow a supply ship to an alien base. Can you do that here? And more than that, the point is their activities really happened in the world, they weren't randomly generated when the game decided to give you something to do. For example, in this game, I got a VIP mission. The first time it was a scientist escort. Then I reloaded and now it was a politician arrest. The mission wasn't the result of what the aliens were doing, but was simply randomly generated when x amount of days passed.

Also, note that I said "strategic layer". They're not really doing anything significant in the tactical map in either case. Like in the original they just wandered around and at most shot at civilians. Here they just stand around some spots and give you a shitty cutscene when they enter your FOV. Then again, you'd think they'd drop what they're doing when they see a Skyranger landing nearby and start hearing gunfire.

The aliens aren't always static.  They do move around some, and they will vary their tactics on you.  I have had an Elite Muton try luring my guys back towards friends - continually moving back if I try advancing on him, instead of shooting him from a distance.  Mutons & Cyberdisks will use grenades if you cluster your squad up, instead of simply shooting.  Large groups will send out flankers on you.  However, some seem...  simpler, I think, than others, like Thin Men vs Mutons.  Plus some of them are "smart" enough not to rush in - if you set up at a door, send one guy to bait them & retreat, they won't all come rushing out into your waiting fire.

I do agree about the gunfire issue, but again, that's probably a game balance issue - if everything converged on you, it could get impossible to win.  Still, games have done that - Thief, I remember having to hide bodies after you knock out a guard, because if another guard stumbles over the body, he'll raise the alarm.

There is nothing intuitively realistic about the Simoleon prices in the strategic layer, they're all really nonsensical for the sake of balance. There's a slew of oddities and limitations only there to introduce balance to X-Com features broken by streamlining (such as explosives that liquidate weapon fragments).

Were prices ever realistic? 500,000 dollars for an interceptor is incredibly low. Even 1970's aircraft cost four times that, according to my incredibly unscientific ten second wikipedia search that could easily be inaccurate. I don't mind the elimination of all the extra zeroes anyway.
The point is proportions. A power generator facility or a satellite should not cost as much as manufacturing 4 medkits. Just for reference, in X-Com, a medkit cost 28k to produce. The cheapest facility, storage, cost 150k, and that was basically a hole in the ground, whereas most other facilities cost 400k+.

Don't get me wrong, the original's proportions (and especially quantities) were questionable, but not anywhere near as fucking bad as this. "XCOM, you're our first and last line of defence! Here's your monthly allowance. You can make 3 medkits with this. Now fuck off.".

This, I think I would really agree with.  OG, sell corpses for about 8k, hire scientists/engineers for 50k, build a new base for $1M, etc.  This one seems a bit forced on the price scale, especially since you could get major funding in the original game from selling off UFO loots, while here you get limited sales, and mostly have to rely on the funding.  Although, they do scale the production price based on your engineers... which now that I think of it, doesn't make sense, as you have robotic production.
Logged
I mean, look at us.  You give us a young child and a puppy, and we produce, possibly, one of the biggest sins against nature the game has ever seen.

Urist McSpike

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3418 on: October 13, 2012, 03:41:35 pm »

Just watched a "let's play" on Youtube and no, I'm not impressed by this product.

Send me a link to that let's play, im interested to know how horrible he is ( most likely me... )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgYU2VGqyGg

They play a review copy they got directly from the publisher. Might get a bit boring if you don't speak German. They talk far too much and fail at basic strategy. But you can see pretty much every detail of the gameplay.

Ok, first off, ignore the video you linked and go watch this playthrough video.  The one you linked is basically the tutorial, and you have almost no control over what is done - the game says "do this", and absolutely can't do anything other than what it says.  The OXM video (first of a six part series) that I linked is actual gameplay, and you can see Matt learning from his mistakes and improving throughout the series.
Logged
I mean, look at us.  You give us a young child and a puppy, and we produce, possibly, one of the biggest sins against nature the game has ever seen.

jocan2003

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #3419 on: October 13, 2012, 03:47:30 pm »

Oh i know, i he said he watched a poor Lp's when i posted the link to my own channel in what? 2 page before his post, i tought he was talking about me thats why i wanted the linky to see if it was me and if not, who was that horrible haha.
Logged
Quote from: LoSboccacc
that was a luky dwarf. I had one dabbling surgeon fail so spectacularly that the patient skull flew a tile away from the table.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
DF doesn't mold players into its image - DF merely selects those who were always ready for DF.
Quote from: Girlinhat
Minecraft UI is very simple. There's only so many ways you can implement "simple" without copying something. We also gonna complain that it uses WASD?
Pages: 1 ... 226 227 [228] 229 230 ... 625