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Author Topic: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)  (Read 961550 times)

Neonivek

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2310 on: October 03, 2012, 06:50:27 am »

Because every videogame has it's form of abstraction, in order to keep the developers sane? If the gun you use gets multiple attacks, why pick a trait that also gives you multiple attacks? You don't need to apply a shot for shot deviation to a machine gun because otherwise, you're not using the machine gun right. With per bullet deviation, you either end up with a shotgun spread, so why not use a shotgun, or a stream, so why not treat it as a stream. Really, it all boils down to artistic choice, and mechanically, I don't think it'd mesh with what's available, unlike Silent Storm.

I've seen a LOT of games (Including most X-coms) actually show the spread... and that is excluding the games where that is actually a large part of the gameplay.

It is just weird, ABSOLUTELY weird, to do it the way they do it.

In fact I can't think of one game that does it the way this Xcom does. (Hmm maybe Fighting games... some of them)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 06:52:09 am by Neonivek »
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chaoticag

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2311 on: October 03, 2012, 06:55:23 am »

Well, if all it is is weird, then is there anything wrong with it? It's simply handling things in a simplified way. I can't think of a game that doesn't show spread either, but to put it bluntly, what is there to gain by simulating that? The game has a pretty transparent board game aesthetic to it as is, so I don't think that's really necessary.
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Neonivek

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2312 on: October 03, 2012, 06:57:08 am »

Well, if all it is is weird, then is there anything wrong with it? It's simply handling things in a simplified way. I can't think of a game that doesn't show spread either, but to put it bluntly, what is there to gain by simulating that? The game has a pretty transparent board game aesthetic to it as is, so I don't think that's really necessary.

Well if we are on that line of thinking why even show the bullets?

The problem with it is that aestetically it looks wrong. It doesn't convey what machine gun fire should convey. Instead looking like someone just turned a Super Soaker filled with bullet shaped water on the enemy.

Why said they need to make the spread of the bullets even matter? Just make it so the bullets hit AROUND the point of attack. Bamn, done... fixed. None of this Super Soaker Machine Gun buisness.

Actually it is a problem with a lot of it in general and suggests a lot of cut corners due to a deadline. Why do they have weapons that shoot multiple visable shots if they arn't going to handle those individual bullets well?

Which is my vote: Originally they were going to handle each projectile individually but they ran out of time.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:00:36 am by Neonivek »
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chaoticag

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2313 on: October 03, 2012, 07:00:17 am »

Well, then what should a machine gun convey?
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Neonivek

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2314 on: October 03, 2012, 07:01:23 am »

Well, then what should a machine gun convey?

I'll draw you a picture later. It is a rather simple concept.

Though maybe I can get a Front Mission picture... hmm it is hard to get a good picture of that.

So yeah I'll have to show you a picture but mainly it is about Spread, Force, and Reaction.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:04:23 am by Neonivek »
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Aptus

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2315 on: October 03, 2012, 07:17:50 am »

Phew thanks guys for having picked up on some things I had missed. I want my happy accidents where I hit something entirely different from what I aimed at, my experience had me worried but obviously there was info out there I had missed. :p
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chaoticag

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2316 on: October 03, 2012, 07:26:57 am »

Why said they need to make the spread of the bullets even matter? Just make it so the bullets hit AROUND the point of attack. Bamn, done... fixed. None of this Super Soaker Machine Gun buisness.

Actually it is a problem with a lot of it in general and suggests a lot of cut corners due to a deadline. Why do they have weapons that shoot multiple visable shots if they arn't going to handle those individual bullets well?

Which is my vote: Originally they were going to handle each projectile individually but they ran out of time.
Post script,: adding this in since you edited your post at about the same time I finished mine, so missed this.

Given that they have had 4 years, I very much doubt they needed to cut corners with making it work as a stream versus making it work as multiple projectiles though. It means new art assets have to be made for their shots, which isn't going to save you time, compared to just using the same bullet asset that would have been available for each weapon. From an artistic standpoint, it makes every weapon very distinctive, useful to know if you're being attacked from beyond line of sight.

 And given how the system works, with cover effectively being an evasion bonus, then working that in there is a needless complicated headache. I'm going to stand by my point that it doesn't play well with other mechanics such as cover and lightning reflexes. If we're dealing with realistic amounts here, a machine gun (Specifically M60, going by the in game model) should fire 30 bullets in a 5 second burst. With a little deviation, that's a cone of death, alien menace over.

Simply put, it's very hard to make something like this work with the hitpoint system, the cover system, the overwatch system, the perk system, and the damage system without it snapping the game in half.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2317 on: October 03, 2012, 07:43:52 am »

The "bullets passing through stuff it doesn't hit to hit something" thing is still lazy bullshit, though, no matter how you cut it.
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hemmingjay

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2318 on: October 03, 2012, 08:35:03 am »

Have people considered that they tried it the other way but it broke game balance/destroyed fun factor?
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forsaken1111

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2319 on: October 03, 2012, 08:37:42 am »

Have people considered that they tried it the other way but it broke game balance/destroyed fun factor?
Your theory is that having bullets magically pass through things is what saved game balance?
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dogstile

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2320 on: October 03, 2012, 08:42:36 am »

The "bullets passing through stuff it doesn't hit to hit something" thing is still lazy bullshit, though, no matter how you cut it.

They said they fixed that, actually. It was a bug.

Phew thanks guys for having picked up on some things I had missed. I want my happy accidents where I hit something entirely different from what I aimed at, my experience had me worried but obviously there was info out there I had missed. :p

Oh don't worry. This is why hiding behind gas station pumps would be a VERY bad idea.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 09:12:13 am by dogstile »
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lordcooper

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2321 on: October 03, 2012, 11:40:26 am »

Reading this thread has probably entertained me more than any two or three great games you care to name.  It's amazing to watch people blow up the most minuscule things into game destroying monstrosities.
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Dohon

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2322 on: October 03, 2012, 11:42:30 am »

Just to clarify (and to echo what dogstile said), the "line of sight" issue (shooting aliens or humans through walls while they can't see eachother) has been confirmed as a bug and will be fixed. Should be done by the time the game releases.

Also, shooting through stuff while seemingly not hitting anything is a limitation of the engine. This is all speculation, but the graphics are just a representation of what happens underneath the hood. Hasn't been confirmed officially, unless I missed it. But it has been discussed extensively on the official forums.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:44:09 am by Dohon »
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LoSboccacc

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2323 on: October 03, 2012, 12:09:26 pm »

Simulating spread is useless because mg spread is nothing like what people thinks it is like.
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Kilroy the Grand

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #2324 on: October 03, 2012, 02:46:38 pm »

Simulating spread is useless because mg spread is nothing like what people thinks it is like.
The distances in the game are what, like 100 feet?
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