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Author Topic: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)  (Read 971368 times)

timferius

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1350 on: August 22, 2012, 07:22:36 pm »

As someone who has only just played the original games in the last five years, this feels like a logical and natural progession for the series. Games evovle as tech progresses, look at the difference between the original and Apocolypse even, and many believe Apocolypse is a great x-com game.
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Neonivek

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1351 on: August 22, 2012, 07:47:53 pm »

As someone who has only just played the original games in the last five years, this feels like a logical and natural progession for the series. Games evovle as tech progresses, look at the difference between the original and Apocolypse even, and many believe Apocolypse is a great x-com game.

Honestly I think Apocolypse had the potential to be an even greater game then Xcom and I sort of want to see it attempted again.

I mean they set it up to be a game filled with factions all against eachother with you sort of inbetween. If developed more it could have been one of the major aspects of the game and the alien invasions (turning people against you).
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timferius

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1352 on: August 22, 2012, 08:44:38 pm »

That would be really cool. I'm interested to see where it goes from here, now that the IP is being activily developed again.
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Neonivek

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1353 on: August 22, 2012, 08:46:41 pm »

That would be really cool. I'm interested to see where it goes from here, now that the IP is being activily developed again.

It could just be a temporary revival and then fade into obscurity once more.

Like Supreme Commander.
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1354 on: August 22, 2012, 10:01:16 pm »

As someone who has only just played the original games in the last five years, this feels like a logical and natural progession for the series. Games evovle as tech progresses, look at the difference between the original and Apocolypse even, and many believe Apocolypse is a great x-com game.

Honestly I think Apocolypse had the potential to be an even greater game then Xcom and I sort of want to see it attempted again.

I mean they set it up to be a game filled with factions all against eachother with you sort of inbetween. If developed more it could have been one of the major aspects of the game and the alien invasions (turning people against you).

God yes Apocalypse had so much potential but it was rushed so had quite a few cut features. However yes, look at the difference between the original and Apocalypse. What was in the original that wasn't in Apocalypse? The only thing I can really think of is HWP's, small arms management on craft and XCOM craft on battlescape being missing. Apocalypse added new features, it didn't cut anything from the original gameplay wise but added more options. The pauseable real-time option was great to change it from the turn based time-unit game to a more squad oriented tactical command game although the option was there to have both modes.

Out of all these remakes, an XCOM Apocalypse remake is one I want to see most, one which can hopefully include and possibly expand on the cut features from Apocalypse.

To conclude, Apocalypse was good game and went forward and was easy to recognise as an XCOM game, this new one seems to cut a lot so is going more sideways towards a different genre and a lot less like an XCOM game.

Anyway I suppose you might consider XCOM: Enforcer a logical and natural progression of the series.
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Domenique

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1355 on: August 23, 2012, 12:56:46 am »

Sharp, could you maybe elaborate on what was cut from apocalypse?
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Dohon

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1356 on: August 23, 2012, 03:45:45 am »

Pardon my ignorance, but do we officially know how missions will work, specifically whether/how random they'll be? I remember that they'll be split into Story and UFO missions, but I don't recall how the UFO side works, if they've said.

Most missions are still fully randomized. Story missions are still few and far between and are supposed to give some idea as how far the invasion has progressed. I can't give you a number, but missions are still as a rule randomized, be they UFO, Terror or something in between.

I don't like how they have used the name.

This seems like a a perfectly fine game but it's not an XCOM game, it's lack of complexity and combat system makes it more arcade like, I'm not saying it's not going to be a fun game or a good game or a game I will never play, it just doesn't seem like an XCOM game.

Only one base, only 4-6 max on squad, infinite ammo, limited equipment management, no stat improvement (don't quote me on this but just looks like solider's level up and you can choose abilities for them), story driven gameplay, choice dilema's rather then elegant solution (or disastrous expensive fuck up) and I am guessing limited randomness, it looks like pre-made maps.

Fun game perhaps, not an XCOM game though.

I can understand your reasoning. Even I was firmly on the sceptical side, seeing how there first was a shooter being developped that didn't even remotely look like XCOM. Bar the name, ofcourse. However, XCOM Enemy Unknown seems to be a lot more fateful to the original. Allow me to add a few things to your points:

- 6 man squads max. This has been one of the biggest issues I had. I always liked to have my 12 men squads. At first. I frequently caught myself just moving soldiers willy-nilly because I wanted to end my damn turn. Having 6 people max allows for faster turns, which means more fun. To me, at least. This concession does cater to younger twitch-gamers / older people with less time / casual gamers / whatever.

- One base. Yeah, sucks. But I only had one main base and several listener / interceptor posts anyhow, so I'll live. You're bummed if you preferred to split research and manufactoring though. But then again, base defense missions are out. Which was met by a huge 'boo hiss' by yours truly.

- Infinite ammo. This still irks me. Granted, you never ever ran out of ammo if you equipped your soldiers well. But I liked producing my magazines and piling them on my troopers. 

- Limited Inventory. Yes, I don't understand this either. But since ammo is out and you only need so many piles of medikits, I can understand the reasoning.

- No stat improvement. Actually, stats are still in. Moreover, soldiers who get really blasted to swiss-cheese and somehow manage to survive, take penalties to their bravery (here called Will, I believe) stat. Meaning faster panicking.

- Story-driven. Story missions are still in the minority. All the talking heads stuff seemed to imply a more linear approach. Yet most of those things were promotion material. You'll have your 'briefings' with story missions and your scientists will do a lot more talking about their recent discovery, but that's it.

- Choice dilemma's. We (and I) have no idea how frequent those are gonna be. They do make your choices a bit more meaningful, but it seems a bit too forced for my taste.

- Pre-made maps. Yes, they are. But it seems there quite a bunch of them. It has been stated several times that you'll see the same map twice in one playthrough. I would have used the term 'highly unlikely' because of the unpredictable nature of the RNG. In any case, there should be plenty of maps and since spawn points are randomised, they do provide some replayability.

In the end, we all have to wait and see. I'm quite convinced that this will be a worthy successor to the venerate XCOM. Things have been streamlined and I don't agree with everything. In fact, I still have my doubts about certain changes. But there are some good things as well. Extensive cosmetic character customization, RPG influences, more tactical approach (smaller maps and smaller squads force you to), less clunky approach, cutting down on some tedious micro-management, kick-ass graphics, meaningful research (since you have limited resources and unless you drag out the game, you won't get all your toys in one sitting), more immersion (memorial wall for instance), ...

In the end, this is not the old XCOM with a new face. Your mileage may vary, but I won't mind the changes as long as the game feels like XCOM. It's a bit like meeting an old friend after an extreme make-over. Sure, he looks odd. Hair all funny, clothes all different. He might even dropped his glasses and decided to adopt a different swagger in his step. But deep down, he is still your friend. Unless he also had a personality-change and became a dick.

XCOM Enemy Unknown better not be a dick, or I'll be trolling the official forums.

That would be really cool. I'm interested to see where it goes from here, now that the IP is being activily developed again.

It could just be a temporary revival and then fade into obscurity once more.

Like Supreme Commander.

Could be, yes. Unless the game sells on a truly massive scale. Then you can bet that everyone and EA will be all over it, to get some piece of the TBS action. It's more probable that it will sell well enough, get good reviews and perhaps another iteration. After that, it'll take another two decades till someone revives it.

Doesn't matter to me, I'll play the game if it's good. ;)

« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 05:27:07 am by Dohon »
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Grakelin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1357 on: August 23, 2012, 04:20:48 am »

Saying this game shouldn't have the XCOM name is unfair. This looks more like XCOM that Apocalypse did.
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IronyOwl

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1358 on: August 23, 2012, 05:11:03 am »

Pardon my ignorance, but do we officially know how missions will work, specifically whether/how random they'll be? I remember that they'll be split into Story and UFO missions, but I don't recall how the UFO side works, if they've said.

Most missions are still fully randomized. Story missions are still few and far between and are supposed to give some idea as how far the invasion has progressed. I can't give you a number, but missions are still as a rule randomized, be they UFO, Terror or something in between.
Thanks. Also good.


However yes, look at the difference between the original and Apocalypse. What was in the original that wasn't in Apocalypse?

Apocalypse added new features, it didn't cut anything from the original gameplay wise but added more options.

To conclude, Apocalypse was good game and went forward and was easy to recognise as an XCOM game, this new one seems to cut a lot so is going more sideways towards a different genre and a lot less like an XCOM game.
I'd disagree that you can just say that cutting things makes it "not XCOM" whereas adding things makes it "XCOM plus stuff." If you change things, you change them, and then it's not the same anymore. Whether those things are being added or subtracted shouldn't directly matter for that.

I also really don't see what you're getting at. Squads are only 6 people, therefore it's not XCOM? Huh? When I think of the soul of XCOM, precisely 14-man squads aren't really what comes to mind. Some changes are a bit more serious, but I really don't see what they've cut out or altered that magically makes this not-XCOM or not even the same genre as XCOM anymore.
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Virtz

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1359 on: August 23, 2012, 05:44:53 am »

I'd disagree that you can just say that cutting things makes it "not XCOM" whereas adding things makes it "XCOM plus stuff." If you change things, you change them, and then it's not the same anymore. Whether those things are being added or subtracted shouldn't directly matter for that.
What? That's not how things work. Set B contains the entirety of set A, plus more. Therefore, you can get the entirety of set A out of set B. Set C contains only parts of A. Therefore you cannot get the whole set A out of set C. (EDIT) And while you could argue that this doesn't always work with artistic works (as games might be viewed), for elements as big as features or gameplay elements I think it does.

Although to be fair, I'd say Apocalypse lacked a few things that made X-Com what it was, so it's not that simple. Still, it had more in common gameplay wise than this reboot apparently does. And it provided a setting based on the events of X-Com, giving nostalgic throwbacks to that game while showing the consequences of the first alien war. A reboot just goes "we could do this better", and usually it's worse.

Personally I guess most of my dislike of this reboot stems from the fact that they're simplifying a turn-based game. Turn-based only works for me when it's complex. When playing it real-time would be too hectic or you'd miss some of the finer details. Here they're apparently simplifying it to a point where you could pretty much play it real-time without much loss of control. To me this is a turn-based system that's just there to waste my time.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 06:31:58 am by Virtz »
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lordcooper

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1360 on: August 23, 2012, 06:34:05 am »

Oh sweet, I didn't know I was an egg.
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1361 on: August 23, 2012, 07:25:31 am »

Sharp, could you maybe elaborate on what was cut from apocalypse?

From the XCOM creator himself http://web.archive.org/web/20010411120930/http://www.mythosgames.com/xcomapocalypse.htm

However to say some of what was cut.

Expanded inter-organisation diplomacy and espionage - your Agents were going to be able to spy on corporations and their key personnel and in the game there are hidden files including a tracker gun which can only be assumed for tracking targets through the city.
Organisations could buy/sell buildings and generally do more things
Multiple Alien Dimensions
Psuedo Randomly Generated Alien Dimension (maybe City as well)
Scenario Generator
Multiplayer
Few more hidden things in the game files but not in game like Large Containment Lab to capture the big giant monster (forgot name, Megaspawn?) and Alien Queen, Mind Shields for Psi Defence (can still get those by raiding Marsec IIRC), Tracker Gun and more then one way to win (alternate victory!)

Basically it was a very ambitious game, not everything might have made it but I'm sure more features would have.

Saying this game shouldn't have the XCOM name is unfair. This looks more like XCOM that Apocalypse did.

In terms of looks I totally agree. It was MicroPose who did the Art Work while Programming and Design was Julian Gollop (the Creator!!!) and his studio Mythos Games.

Unfortunately MicroPose were also the publishers so they had a lot of power to decide what was in and what was out and to have the artwork their way. Same MicroPose who made Terror From the Deep as well which was more of a palette change and a great example of horrible level design.

----

Anyway in this new XCOM the Sectoids and Muton's don't actually look as scary as they did in the originals, ok I'm lying about Sectoids because they always looked cute (green gut's autopsy and all) but the new sectoids seem like they inter-bred with zerglings, the mutons don't seem like genetically engineered super soldiers but more like Halo Brutes or Krogan from Mass Effect, they don't seem like the lean mean killing machines of the muton's of old.

This new XCOM contains less gameplay features which is what I mean about it not being an XCOM game. The artwork is more superficial, you could change the aliens to Halo style Covenant enemies invading earth and call it a Halo game instead, which might make more sense as that's already a franchise being milked for all it's worth. It's the gameplay that makes the game and this doesn't seem like an XCOM game.

Also in regards to the 4-6 man squad issue, I mean that it's not a tactical/logistical choice anymore, and you won't be able to get that same sensation of coming in with a 12 man squad and leaving with 3 survivors, or having to abort the mission and making it a race to get back to the skyranger with a concious soldier so you don't lose the aircraft as well.

From the demo it doesn't look like it's got big maps and I doubt you will get the problem of getting shot as soon as you leave your transport (ah the times I used to have to pretty much do a sliding puzzle in the skyranger to make sure it was someone expendable to peek their head out first). It looks like it's pretty easy to know where the aliens are and you won't start off surrounded. There is no RNG to screw you over.
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nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1362 on: August 23, 2012, 09:02:03 am »

Er, from where I'm sitting, it's packing more features than the originals. What is it missing that makes it falls so short on gameplay in your mind?
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Rince Wind

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1363 on: August 23, 2012, 09:28:17 am »

I think random maps are missing. Inventory is missing. Big Squads are missing. Multiple bases are missing (though that is not that much of an issue for me). Base Defence is missing. Probably something else I forgot. You have fewer decisions to make.
You have 20 Blaster Rifles and only 10 clips? Guess you can only give them to half of your guys. And hope they get some Elerium so you can produce more clips.

For me most of the additions are just a "nice to have" rather than being something substantial, if even that.
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nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1364 on: August 23, 2012, 09:44:06 am »

Multiple bases are still there, of a sort. You make recon bases versus multiple full bases.

Quote
random maps

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/22/new-xcom-enemy-unknown-details-and-launch-date/

Quote
Firaxis also promises plenty of randomly generated maps for Enemy Unknown. It developed a system where once the user fights on a particular level, the game won’t use that same map for the rest of the playthrough. Plus, the starting positions of the aliens and your squad are also random, so even if you end up in familiar territory in a subsequent romp, it shouldn’t play out the same. These elements can keep each trip through the main campaign feeling fresh.

Different, tweaked features I agree with. Saying the game is just flat out shallower than the originals, before they've even been played, sounds a little extreme to me. And there were times when I felt like X-Com's hundreds of choices were not always awesome. I actually found screwing with inventory to be a pain in the ass and not a lot of fun.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 09:46:25 am by nenjin »
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