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[Muz]

How does slowing down manufacturing by sending soldiers out supposed to work? Unless its for armor or something of that sort.

Afterlight had multiclass personnel. Some soldiers were also engineers or scientists. You also sent noncoms on missions, sorta.

Yeah, this. And there were few 'pure' soldiers, so you often had to level up a few multiclass ones. And some missions required soldiers with specialized mech/science skills, I think medikits and suit repair kits needed special personnel to run them... also sending specialist scientists would have some kind of bonus damage on creatures that they're specialists on.

There was also a limited amount of technicians and scientists too since they couldn't research while out for training. So, you could have research running constantly by keeping all the multiclasses at home. Or you could have two or more labs running constantly, but at the cost of never being able to send out a full squad of warrior-scientists. And of course, your guys probably won't be doing much researching if they were in the medical bay.

If you expected a really easy mission, there was an incentive to send ~3 soldiers and keep the rest back for training instead of filling up the ship to spread out XP. Or send out the weak for XP, train the strong at base. If you expected a tough mission, you could send out all the Xeno specialists and weapons techies for specialized extra damage, and medical/suit specialists for support.

If you play hardcore, you can expect the top soldiers to die eventually, so having a few multiclassed soldiers out for training would give you enough skilled soldiers to fall back on while the noob soldiers were being XPed and trained up.

It was a very fun system. You actually did have to think about personnel management, and having a squad limited to 7 people at max never hurt immersion (and you'd rarely actually want to bring a max squad anyway).

[Farce]

Too few men makes it hard for me to keep my immersion in the game world.

This.  One of my favorite things about X-com is that, with that many bodies on the ground, it made me feel like I was sending in a task force to accomplish a mission - not just the one little squad.

I posted about a "scaled up" X-com game in that one dream games thread we have here somewhere - lots of Skyrangers dropping off battalions and artillery VS armies of xenos with giant mechs and whatnot.  Scaling down to four guys is the opposite direction I want to move in.  :(

I also liked having large squads because it helped make my soldiers expendable.  With just 4-6 guys now, they can't afford to allow stuff like aliens getting reactionfire or nades on us while we try to exit the Skyranger - that'll mean "lol everyone dies before you can even get into the mission, terrible game, will not sell" stuff.  It makes it feel... fair.  It shouldn't feel fair, it should feel unfair, so when we kill them xenos and win the mission, we feel badass.

I never really played long enough to get to power armor, so all my guys died in one hit UNLESS they were really lucky (which made them my beloved badass soldiers).  That was good.  It made me fear their shots.

One of the biggest things I didn't like practically every remake I've seen and Apocalypse was how sturdy my soldiers were.  While I love seeing my buff soldiers in -shock soak up bullets while returning fire, it made it a reliable, viable tactic to let my guys get shot.  That's not cool - I don't want my X-com-grunts soaking a couple lasers to the chest every mission, spending a couple hours in medbay back in the base, and then walking it off like nothing happened!  I don't want them to walk away from grenades.

But with just 4-6 guys, I can't see how they'll NOT be doing all that.  There's no buffer zone of rookies taking their trial by fire - if they're in close, one grenade from off screen that you didn't see kills the squad, or they'll be able to shrug it off and take cover to continue fighting - hurting, but not dead from a super-advanced bomb.

The rookies dying left and right made it feel like what it should feel like - humanity going their hardest against a threat it isn't ready for.

I really hope there'll be a mod that lets me up the unit totals.  ...But, since I probably won't be able to run it on PC, I'll probably be outta luck.

...I didn't like Civ 4 either, so kinda worried.  :V

[Sowelu]

Mind you, I do still want to see something like the X-Militia idea I was thinking of a while back.  Instead of twelve theoretically-heavily-armed-and-armored guys in a Skyranger, you bring thirty guys in pickup trucks armed with a hodgepodge of whatever revolvers and long guns they happened to have around the house.  Oh god the body count, even against a small scout with a single Sectoid.  Shoot 'em and loot 'em before X-Com gets there!  Try not to get caught by the cops when you're hauling a rocket launcher in your truck bed, remembering that the local governments are pretending to kowtow to alien demands...

[MrWiggles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDelvncsng&feature=g-all-u&context=G2e3e6d5FAAAAAAAAAAA

[nenjin]

So Interceptions, downing space crafts and exploring the crash sites (and eventually the ship) are all in. That's good to hear. Somehow I think interceptions aren't going to be too complicated, they're already juggling several formats for the game, I'd be surprised if interceptions are really deep. But it'll be better than original X-Com's I think. They were damn near incomprehensible to me.

[Tilla]

So Interceptions, downing space crafts and exploring the crash sites (and eventually the ship) are all in. That's good to hear. Somehow I think interceptions aren't going to be too complicated, they're already juggling several formats for the game, I'd be surprised if interceptions are really deep. But it'll be better than original X-Com's I think. They were damn near incomprehensible to me.

Xenonauts handled interceptions in a way I really liked, in the alpha so far. Hoping they can match it in fun-ness.

[Vibhor]

So Interceptions, downing space crafts and exploring the crash sites (and eventually the ship) are all in. That's good to hear. Somehow I think interceptions aren't going to be too complicated, they're already juggling several formats for the game, I'd be surprised if interceptions are really deep. But it'll be better than original X-Com's I think. They were damn near incomprehensible to me.

What is with all of you people?
Was the original game really that incomprehensible? Interceptions were the most easiest thing to understand. It even had pictures which showed what buttons.
Something makes me feel this isn't the same dwarf fortress forums it used to be.

[nenjin]

When some interceptions were over in 3 seconds, it can be a little hard to figure out what all the buttons mean and actually do any good. I eventually got the hang of it, sorta. But I don't think it was the best execution.

Something makes me feel this isn't the same dwarf fortress forums it used to be.

*compares reg dates*

Uh huh.

[Fikes]

So Interceptions, downing space crafts and exploring the crash sites (and eventually the ship) are all in. That's good to hear. Somehow I think interceptions aren't going to be too complicated, they're already juggling several formats for the game, I'd be surprised if interceptions are really deep. But it'll be better than original X-Com's I think. They were damn near incomprehensible to me.

What is with all of you people?
Was the original game really that incomprehensible? Interceptions were the most easiest thing to understand. It even had pictures which showed what buttons.
Something makes me feel this isn't the same dwarf fortress forums it used to be.

Posts like this crack me up the most. In one sentence you say "most easiest" and in the next you don't even finish the thought, yet you take a holier than thou approach to the "new" community. Phah.

But I digress...

I will be the first to admit that I didn't like having to chase down 30 aliens on a big map in X-Com. I prefer smaller maps and quicker engagements because it really does get repetitive in the end. That being said, I feel like 6 is too small.

I think the new X-Com has the makings of a fun game but will probably play more similarly to Jagged Alliance than X-Com.

[Kolbur]

...

I will be the first to admit that I didn't like having to chase down 30 aliens on a big map in X-Com. I prefer smaller maps and quicker engagements because it really does get repetitive in the end. That being said, I feel like 6 is too small.

I think the new X-Com has the makings of a fun game but will probably play more similarly to Jagged Alliance than X-Com.

I have exactly the same impression. XCOM playing similar like Jagged Alliance would mean that it fails to capture the spirit of the original.

I mean how the hell will the missions work out with only 4 soldiers? There can be either a similar really low number of aliens per mission, more but really weakass/retarded aliens (JA style) or more aliens that are superior to the soldiers (in the early game at least). Only the last would provide the proper feel of XCOM but that doesn't work out with a high mortality. It would mean insane difficulty and a lot of saving/loading since with only 4 guys who are also specialised there's just no buffer for losses.

[Vibhor]

When some interceptions were over in 3 seconds, it can be a little hard to figure out what all the buttons mean and actually do any good. I eventually got the hang of it, sorta. But I don't think it was the best execution.

Something makes me feel this isn't the same dwarf fortress forums it used to be.

*compares reg dates*

Uh huh.

3 seconds? Firstly, you start off on standby mode in an interception which means the battle is completely on hold unless the alien ship withdraws(this usually happens when the ship is a scout, other than that it doesn't happen very often). It may have something to do with the cpu cycles in dosbox.

Second, you phrased your post as if you were incapable of understanding the interception and that put you off the game. While yes I agree that there was a certain need of tutorial(everything was in the manual at that time) your post didn't get THAT through to me. Also, there are various other much more complex things about the game that need to be fixed but out of all those you picked something that was  not even a problem to begin with.

Third, With that little line I didn't mean "Back in the old days" I meant people who play dwarf fortress complaining about minor interface issues(which were actually non issues) comes off rather odd. But I guess my post wasn't written very well.

TL;DR : I apologize if it came out a bit brash but the thing you are calling complex is actually rather simple.

[nenjin]

I'll admit I didn't give it the "DF approach." But up to that point I hadn't needed to with the game (for the most part.) It's one part of the game that really showed its age, to me, because it lacked tool tips and all that fancy stuff that newer games include. So yes, I did find myself rather put off by it.

Anyways, no hard feelings.

[Virex]

It would mean insane difficulty and a lot of saving/loading since with only 4 guys who are also specialised there's just no buffer for losses.

It is Xcom we're talking about. It wouldn't be right if you could win a mission on your first try. (Yes, I know that the missions in the original were often winnable with reloading, not everything goes right in the first game.)

[gimlet]

But it's complete BS to HAVE to reload/redo missions - it might as well be one of those stupid puzzle games you have to "reload until you do it the designer's way and win every mission" like Commandos or Desperados.  Earth's not ever really in danger if that's the required play style, nothing is really scary or dangerous just time consuming and inconvenient.

[Kolbur]

It would mean insane difficulty and a lot of saving/loading since with only 4 guys who are also specialised there's just no buffer for losses.

It is Xcom we're talking about. It wouldn't be right if you could win a mission on your first try. (Yes, I know that the missions in the original were often winnable with reloading, not everything goes right in the first game.)

Indeed it is and I'm not specifically complaining about too much difficulty but how it is handled. The thing is in the original it was actually possible to win hard missions with many losses. How is this going to be possible with only 4 soldiers? 2 guys dead at disembarking, while completely normal in the original with only 4 soldiers it means half your manpower for the mission is dead already. Specialised manpower even. Hands down, it just won't happen. Any serious loss and you will likely have to reload. They might include permanent death for soldiers but the fact that they even feel like having to mention that is ridiculous. I call bullshit at any claims that the new XCOM will have any resemblence of the high mortality with so few soldiers for a mission. Ergo it will most likely play more like Jagged Alliance.

Having said that, the graphics so far looked pretty awesome. I just hope that they put as much of effort into the actual game design. That's a common problem today...