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[bombzero]

we need to find dwarves in real life, and then have them manufacture out guns... that way we can have *copper bullets* [25]  that slice through depleted uranium ballistic armor.

[Hammerstar]

With decent force, whips can cut stomachs open.
Imagine one wielded by a psychotic green creature.

Now imagine a leather whip cutting a 6 inch steel plated tank in half.

And we've got a boss for Metal Gear Solid 5.

[Loud Whispers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

With decent force, whips can cut stomachs open.
Imagine one wielded by a psychotic green creature.

Now imagine a leather whip cutting a 6 inch steel plated tank in half.

And we've got a boss for Metal Gear Solid 5.

Snake? SNAKE? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Cellmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

Oh, but they would. Steel plate armor is pretty easy to dent with a pickaxe, and this should be easy enough to dent (or puncture) with a well placed blow from a pointed weight.  That type of whip to me appears to be a pickaxe at the end of a chain. So a pickaxe, with greater force applicable due to the length of the weilding arm + chain.

Otherwise, it must work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjrxIGnvVk&feature=related

[Loud Whispers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

Oh, but they would. Steel plate armor is pretty easy to dent with a pickaxe, and this should be easy enough to dent (or puncture) with a well placed blow from a pointed weight.  That type of whip to me appears to be a pickaxe at the end of a chain. So a pickaxe, with greater force applicable due to the length of the weilding arm + chain.

Otherwise, it must work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjrxIGnvVk&feature=related

So a novice using a specialist weapon would be able to defeat a skilled swordsman in full solid plate? This isn't the segmented stuff the samurai used

[UltraValican]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

Oh, but they would. Steel plate armor is pretty easy to dent with a pickaxe, and this should be easy enough to dent (or puncture) with a well placed blow from a pointed weight.  That type of whip to me appears to be a pickaxe at the end of a chain. So a pickaxe, with greater force applicable due to the length of the weilding arm + chain.

Otherwise, it must work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjrxIGnvVk&feature=related

So a novice using a specialist weapon would be able to defeat a skilled swordsman in full solid plate? This isn't the segmented stuff the samurai used

* Cough* China*Cough*

[Urist Da Vinci]

Tools are heavier than they should be: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4979

Also, slicing knives and carving forks are slightly better than carving knives at the stabby stabby, according to the raw files.

[Cellmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

Oh, but they would. Steel plate armor is pretty easy to dent with a pickaxe, and this should be easy enough to dent (or puncture) with a well placed blow from a pointed weight.  That type of whip to me appears to be a pickaxe at the end of a chain. So a pickaxe, with greater force applicable due to the length of the weilding arm + chain.

Otherwise, it must work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjrxIGnvVk&feature=related

So a novice using a specialist weapon would be able to defeat a skilled swordsman in full solid plate? This isn't the segmented stuff the samurai used

Against blunt weapons, The layered leather armor of samurai would diffuse the force far better than a single layer of plate. That's what we give our dwarves. One layer of plate over a t-shirt.

We don't even make our armor thick. we use only one bar of metal for a breastplate, rather than the three needed for anything thicker than tin foil.  We also only use a five piece suite. Does helm, Breastplate, Mail shirt, gloves, greaves, and boots sound like full steal plate to you? that's practically naked. Not even a groin guard there.

Also, It makes sense that even a skilled sword dwarf might be disabled by a hit from twenty unskilled fighters in a line swinging weights on chains, If he were to just charge into that mess like a real dwarf. I mean, I've never lost a good fighter to a single unskilled chainweilder. But they come in packs.

[GreatWyrmGold]

With decent force, whips can cut stomachs open.
Imagine one wielded by a psychotic green creature.

Now imagine a leather whip cutting a 6 inch steel plated tank in half.

Not leather, metal. Leather ones likely wouldn't be much better, but that's beside the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss This with a sizable blade at the end and...
whips would accurately  represented, quit being but hurt over that expendable steel peons.

If you noticed, those wouldn't have been used against European Knights armed in steel plate. Or tanks for that matter.

Oh, but they would. Steel plate armor is pretty easy to dent with a pickaxe, and this should be easy enough to dent (or puncture) with a well placed blow from a pointed weight.  That type of whip to me appears to be a pickaxe at the end of a chain. So a pickaxe, with greater force applicable due to the length of the weilding arm + chain.

Otherwise, it must work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjrxIGnvVk&feature=related

So a novice using a specialist weapon would be able to defeat a skilled swordsman in full solid plate? This isn't the segmented stuff the samurai used

Goblins soldiers, who are the most common users of whips and (IIRC) the only users of scourges, aren't novices; they're career raiders. Dwarven militias are lucky if they are skilled or in "full solid plate," and if so blessed are likely outnumbered. Your argument is valid for the real world but misrepresents the typical DF situation somewhat.

[Loud Whispers]

Against blunt weapons, The layered leather armor of samurai would diffuse the force far better than a single layer of plate. That's what we give our dwarves. One layer of plate over a t-shirt.

Guess where that shock goes? Yup. Straight into organs, which is why plate is much better.

We don't even make our armor thick. we use only one bar of metal for a breastplate, rather than the three needed for anything thicker than tin foil.  We also only use a five piece suite. Does helm, Breastplate, Mail shirt, gloves, greaves, and boots sound like full steal plate to you? that's practically naked. Not even a groin guard there.

I'm pretty certain it takes more than one bar of metal to make plate....

Also, It makes sense that even a skilled sword dwarf might be disabled by a hit from twenty unskilled fighters in a line swinging weights on chains, If he were to just charge into that mess like a real dwarf. I mean, I've never lost a good fighter to a single unskilled chainweilder. But they come in packs.

Sending in one Dwarf against twenty fighters regardless of their weapon would mean suicide in most instances anyways. Not really a good argument :/

Goblins soldiers, who are the most common users of whips and (IIRC) the only users of scourges, aren't novices; they're career raiders. Dwarven militias are lucky if they are skilled or in "full solid plate," and if so blessed are likely outnumbered. Your argument is valid for the real world but misrepresents the typical DF situation somewhat.

I'm talking about the instance where you get novices being able to punch through armour with incredible ease, much more so than weapons that are actually meant to be used against armoured enemies.

[Cellmonk]

Against blunt weapons, The layered leather armor of samurai would diffuse the force far better than a single layer of plate. That's what we give our dwarves. One layer of plate over a t-shirt.

Guess where that shock goes? Yup. Straight into organs, which is why plate is much better.

A thin layer of metal will spread the force of an attack to a certain point. after a certain point, the metal gives, and no longer takes the force. A martial arts expert breaking a block of concrete will hurt his hand less if the blocks break (the force travels through) than if the blocks do not (the force is stopped). It seems that a pointed weight traveling at a high enough speed should be capable of achieve that breaking point if it hits squarely, thus putting all the force through to, you guessed it, the organs, while embedding itself in the flesh. I don't know the mathematics of this though.

We don't even make our armor thick. we use only one bar of metal for a breastplate, rather than the three needed for anything thicker than tin foil.  We also only use a five piece suite. Does helm, Breastplate, Mail shirt, gloves, greaves, and boots sound like full steal plate to you? that's practically naked. Not even a groin guard there.

I'm pretty certain it takes more than one bar of metal to make plate....

The thing about how many bars it takes to make metal was meant as a sort of joke. Due to an ongoing bug, every piece of armor takes exactly one bar of metal to make, even if the recipe needs three.

Also, It makes sense that even a skilled sword dwarf might be disabled by a hit from twenty unskilled fighters in a line swinging weights on chains, If he were to just charge into that mess like a real dwarf. I mean, I've never lost a good fighter to a single unskilled chainweilder. But they come in packs.

Sending in one Dwarf against twenty fighters regardless of their weapon would mean suicide in most instances anyways. Not really a good argument :/

Even when we send twenty dwarves in, the most skilled fighter breaks off ahead of the rest and charges in blindly by herself. the goblins, who tend to all run at the same speed, meat him all in a pack. I've lost many a good dwarf to her own annoying bravery.

[Loud Whispers]

A thin layer of metal will spread the force of an attack to a certain point. after a certain point, the metal gives, and no longer takes the force. A martial arts expert breaking a block of concrete will hurt his hand less if the blocks break (the force travels through) than if the blocks do not (the force is stopped). It seems that a pointed weight traveling at a high enough speed should be capable of achieve that breaking point if it hits squarely, thus putting all the force through to, you guessed it, the organs, while embedding itself in the flesh. I don't know the mathematics of this though.

Martial arts expert = Goblin with a whip

Even when we send twenty dwarves in, the most skilled fighter breaks off ahead of the rest and charges in blindly by herself. the goblins, who tend to all run at the same speed, meat him all in a pack. I've lost many a good dwarf to her own annoying bravery.

That's why I remove their eyeballs. Sounds like bad commandeering on your part

Also, send 50-90-200 Dwarves.

[Broseph Stalin]

A thin layer of metal will spread the force of an attack to a certain point. after a certain point, the metal gives, and no longer takes the force. A martial arts expert breaking a block of concrete will hurt his hand less if the blocks break (the force travels through) than if the blocks do not (the force is stopped). It seems that a pointed weight traveling at a high enough speed should be capable of achieve that breaking point if it hits squarely, thus putting all the force through to, you guessed it, the organs, while embedding itself in the flesh. I don't know the mathematics of this though.

Martial arts expert = Goblin with a whip

Even when we send twenty dwarves in, the most skilled fighter breaks off ahead of the rest and charges in blindly by herself. the goblins, who tend to all run at the same speed, meat him all in a pack. I've lost many a good dwarf to her own annoying bravery.

That's why I remove their eyeballs. Sounds like bad commandeering on your part

Also, send 50-90-200 Dwarves.

I never send them to meet the enemy, I always station them at a position fortified with traps and war animals and let the goblins run into a finely crafted ass kicking.

[Cellmonk]

That's why I remove their eyeballs. Sounds like bad commandeering on your part

Also, send 50-90-200 Dwarves.

I never send them to meet the enemy, I always station them at a position fortified with traps and war animals and let the goblins run into a finely crafted ass kicking.

Thats a good idea. But for some reason I kinda like the image of goblins approaching the gate. they shout slurs (like "shorty!" and "elf friend") at the raised gate. Suddenly, the drawbridge lowers. Twenty armed to the teeth dwarves covered in blood and gore, and bursting with muscles run screaming out, mincing the disorganized crowd of 60-100 soon-retreating goblins like tofu.

The trouble comes when the crowd of super-dwarves are at the edge of the map beating a lone goblin to death, and then a squad of lashers show up at the gate now guarded by two unconscious axelords, and a legendary armorsmith. And right as I have the gate's lever pulled, the fort's legendary weaponsmith decides to start standing right where its about to raise.

Removing their eyeballs sounds like a great idea, but I haven't come across a syndrome of that sort yet. And I think you said that removing eyes with magma doesn't work that well. Next release, I am definitely going to mod in wood alcohol to blind those who drink it. "bringing the wood chips to the still, m'lord!" That and other things. Involving cats. and vermin.

[Broseph Stalin]

Thats a good idea. But for some reason I kinda like the image of goblins approaching the gate. they shout slurs (like "shorty!" and "elf friend") at the raised gate. Suddenly, the drawbridge lowers. Twenty armed to the teeth dwarves covered in blood and gore, and bursting with muscles run screaming out, mincing the disorganized crowd of 60-100 soon-retreating goblins like tofu.

The trouble comes when the crowd of super-dwarves are at the edge of the map beating a lone goblin to death, and then a squad of lashers show up at the gate now guarded by two unconscious axelords, and a legendary armorsmith. And right as I have the gate's lever pulled, the fort's legendary weaponsmith decides to start standing right where its about to raise.

Removing their eyeballs sounds like a great idea, but I haven't come across a syndrome of that sort yet. And I think you said that removing eyes with magma doesn't work that well. Next release, I am definitely going to mod in wood alcohol to blind those who drink it. "bringing the wood chips to the still, m'lord!" That and other things. Involving cats. and vermin.

I find that my strategy ensures total decimation. It's absolutely terrifying how brutal two fully armed and armored squads working in unison can be. If it's done properly they form a ball of murder that doesn't break up until it comes time to massacre the enemy while they retreat, it's remarkably effective at slaughtering them down to the last man.