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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 772200 times)

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10590 on: January 04, 2013, 11:18:00 am »

Are you seriously suggesting that America's infrastructure can't be improved?  Like, look at mainland Europe or Japan's rail systems and tell me they aren't a) beneficial to their economies and b) better than the one in the US.

Besides that, right now we are waiting for bridges to fall down in rush hour traffic instead of replacing them with safe alternatives. We are doing the same thing with our nuclear power plants. We are doing the same thing with our water and sewage infrastructure. The stuff we built 40 or 50 years ago was never designed to last more than 20 or 30 years, and we have not being making the investments required to keep fully functional or replace them. I am not even talking about stuff like public transportation or clean energy, this is the raw basic stuff that has been neglected for decades.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10591 on: January 04, 2013, 11:20:56 am »

You have to adjust the spending to the GDP to get a meaningful graph. And there is a slight dip in ~1987 :P

I need a better magnifying glass, I guess. GDP growth matters only if you really think that America has years of robust GDP growth ahead to broaden the tax base. Frankly, I don't think so. I realize that the CBO loves to pretend so, but it's the era of the new normal in America now.

No opportunity for investment in infrastructure? What the fuck are you smoking?

We have hundreds of billions of dollars worth of general maintenance that has been ignored for decades.

You do realize that American Infrastructure is woefully under repaired. Our bridges are falling apart, bad roads add billions of dollars in gas and auto repair costs. Our power system is barely functional at the best of times and a complete failure given regular natural disasters. Our power plants are ancient. Our internet is laughable, barely better than third world countries when every other western nation is 10 times faster.

Increasing that infrastructure by building more roads and bridges hardly solves your problem of unemployed sociology majors. I mean, it helps the Mexican economy, I suppose, and I read about a Chinese company that won a bid to build a bridge in America and imported Chinese nationals because it couldn't find Americans with dirty enough hands for the job, so Chinese economy, too; but average Americans no longer want to work at anything remotely useful for a living.

I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, and I know that I need to spell this out, because Bay12 rarely has a sense of humor. The more important part here is that those infrastructure improvements have dubious real worth. Your current number of bridges are probably getting you to work on time. If another bridge doesn't decrease commute times, it failed as an investment.

American internet is plenty fast. If you have faster internet, how will it increase your productivity? It'll be fun with faster internet, true, but fun doesn't make the world go round. If you set out to borrow trillions more, you better have gotten serious about these questions. The numbers game is real. You eat the numbers game every time when you toss bits of paper at a cashier and she gives you a week's worth of food.

Quote from: Frumple
That... chart. That chart is hilarious.

That chart is a quick image search. never went to the website. You didn't say shit about whether federal spending has ever decreased, though. Do you have a problem with the base data, or just that the base data wasn't goosed and lipsticked enough to your tastes? Maybe it wasn't hilarious enough. The rest can be spun various ways, as you're gleefully doing right now. Spending has never gone down. The rest is pointless trivia. If we enter an age of flat GDP growth, the spending will be the spending, pure and simple. GDP can grow a country out of debt, but America won't do that anymore.

Quote
Minor point of order, here. It may be a solid line of work in the worst catastrophe, but it's a pretty terrible line of work in a time of excess (which we're still thoroughly in).

A time of excess when people are complaining about unemployment and underemployment? We're living on the table-scraps of excess now.

No, they literally are terrorists. The create terror for political and financial gain. They cause financial harm to America. The intentionally fabricated the "uncertainty" in the markets and publicly stated they would be willing to crash the economy to harm the president. It is completely insane.

It takes two sides to tango. The Democrats are also terrorists. They're doing the same thing, but more cravenly and opportunistically, because they know that the blame will be stuck on the Republicans.

The US has had two major examples of massive government spending cuts, though. The first, obviously, is after WW2, which I don't think needs much explanation. The second, however, was during the early 1920s, after the end of the war. As shown:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's worth mentioning that this massive cut in spending was also occurring at the same time as sizable tax cuts (Especially the income tax, which was substantially reduced) and a fairly deep recession. Despite this, the economy benefited greatly, revenues didn't decrease, and the deficit shot down. So there are times where government spending was cut, if not recently.

It also takes two for someone to stand up against a terrorist.

Can you cite any specific terroristic things that democrats have done to harm America? Anything other than cower in fear before the threats of the right?

I can point to things the republicans have done. The debt ceiling fiasco. The fiscal cliff fiasco. The fabrication of justification for invading Iraq. Then there is the whole randian movement that explicitly wants to see the federal government completely dismantled.

The Randian movement? Seriously?

Objectivism's "peak" was in the 1960s and was composed of a bunch of impoverished Eastern European anti-communist immigrants living in the same neighbourhood in New York. Yeah, there are Republicans who claim to admire Ayn Rand, but they're basically just giving lip service because "principled" opposition to government spending is becoming fashionable for the first time in ages. Believe me, if the Republicans were Objectivists, they'd be cutting just about every program within reach immediately for every penny it's worth regardless of everything else. They certainly wouldn't be "obstructionist", at least.

Are you seriously suggesting that America's infrastructure can't be improved?  Like, look at mainland Europe or Japan's rail systems and tell me they aren't a) beneficial to their economies and b) better than the one in the US.

Utterly irrelevant. (A) Mainland Europe and Japan's populations are far more densely packed, meaning rail is actually somewhat cost efficient, and (B) Cars are far more expensive for consumers to use, especially as a result of exceptionally high gas prices. The bulk of rail would end up just connecting cities in the American interior that would get little traffic, especially when you can just drive your car for shorter trips or take a plane for longer trips.

At least in Canada, the government does subsidize rail transport, and Via Rail is still extortionately expensive, slow, and not terribly high in quality, even though we've at least got the fairly well populated Windsor-Quebec City corridor.
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Sheb

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10592 on: January 04, 2013, 11:25:11 am »

Also, current interest rate for 10-y bonds is 1.84%. It's not like it's hard to find investment that bring more money than this. (Hell, the US could borrow money and buy Chinese bonds and make money.)

P.S. I also find it funny that Troll is claiming we can't lower spending, the GJ claim that we did. Maybe we should jsut let you two debates together. :p
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10593 on: January 04, 2013, 11:29:25 am »

Increasing that infrastructure by building more roads and bridges hardly solves your problem of unemployed sociology majors. I mean, it helps the Mexican economy, I suppose, and I read about a Chinese company that won a bid to build a bridge in America and imported Chinese nationals because it couldn't find Americans with dirty enough hands for the job, so Chinese economy, too; but average Americans no longer want to work at anything remotely useful for a living.

Having an academic degree doesn't make one incapable of getting their hands dirty.  It just means we're capable of doing things in addition to that.  My first job was scanning & stuffing packages into planes for shipping.  I did a damn good job.  I moved top speed for 4-5 hours straight without stopping, moving heavy stuff and packing perfect cans.  On days I wasn't there, they had to pull in three extra people to cover for me.  It was dirty, too.  Dirt from all around the world.  When I blew my nose after work, my snot was black.

I worked that job while getting my degree as a 3d artist, along with a bunch of my classmates.  I couldn't do it forever, though.  I needed higher pay to survive.  Now I'm working a worthless desk job (customs clearance) and I fucking hate it with a passion.  I would go back to throwing around boxes (or any equivalent) in a heartbeat if I could support my family on it.

The numbers game is real. You eat the numbers game every time when you toss bits of paper at a cashier and she gives you a week's worth of food.

If society collectively agreed that you had to earn your food by winning a game of checkers against the cashier, would you say the same?  Attaching stakes doesn't legitimize the game, nor make it well-designed.


The Randian movement? Seriously?

Objectivism's "peak" was in the 1960s and was composed of a bunch of impoverished Eastern European anti-communist immigrants living in the same neighbourhood in New York. Yeah, there are Republicans who claim to admire Ayn Rand, but they're basically just giving lip service because "principled" opposition to government spending is becoming fashionable for the first time in ages. Believe me, if the Republicans were Objectivists, they'd be cutting just about every program within reach immediately for every penny it's worth regardless of everything else. They certainly wouldn't be "obstructionist", at least.

Libertarianism has seemed to me like it's growing extremely rapidly the last few years, and all the ones I know worship Ayn Rand.  They're not a huge force yet, but the "movement" descriptor is meant to indicate growth and the potential to become a force.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 11:39:21 am by SalmonGod »
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PTTG??

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10594 on: January 04, 2013, 11:39:18 am »

Ah, the old economic solipsism again. Happens to everyone, once in a while.

Sooner or later, you'll calm down and remember that while barter is fine when there aren't any specialized labors- everyone spends all day chasing and stabbing food units- as soon as society reaches a point where there's specialization, a common currency is useful.

Now then, I'm not a nationalist, but the idea that Americans would rather starve than do an honest day's work is repellent to me. I don't know who you are talking to, but I suspect they have a strong bias against the united states for some reason. That's fine, I'm sure, but don't let them give you the wrong impression- there are 300 million americans, and they are not all unemployed liberal arts majors.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10595 on: January 04, 2013, 11:44:23 am »

Last time trains come up someone pointed out that US population density is lower then Europe.  Then someone points out that is a meaningless statistic because we aren't trying to connect empty plots of land in Montana, we just care about where people actually live.  So trains come up and we're back to US has lower population density then Europe.

What, practically speaking, is the difference in the behavior of the right wingers in this thread from the behavior of trolls?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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PTTG??

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10596 on: January 04, 2013, 11:46:03 am »

That's unfair, surely there are conservatives here who aren't trolls...

like, erm...

hmm.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10597 on: January 04, 2013, 11:48:25 am »

Ah, the old economic solipsism again. Happens to everyone, once in a while.

Sooner or later, you'll calm down and remember that while barter is fine when there aren't any specialized labors- everyone spends all day chasing and stabbing food units- as soon as society reaches a point where there's specialization, a common currency is useful.

I understand the purpose that currency serves.  It fosters broad societal organization as an organically emergent phenomenon by algorithmic abstraction of resource and task allocation, because individual barter is too slow and crunchy.  I've never been given a reason to believe that there aren't other ways we can accomplish the same thing.  I'm not saying civilization should abandon the use of an operating system entirely and cease to function.  I'm saying we can develop other operating systems.  Civilization isn't the same as it was 100 years ago.  It's running on new hardware.  This operating system is incompatible, and the system is breaking down.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 11:50:42 am by SalmonGod »
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Sheb

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10598 on: January 04, 2013, 11:49:07 am »

Well, just because you don't remember every stuff said before doesn't mean you're a troll.
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Darvi

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10599 on: January 04, 2013, 11:49:54 am »

That's unfair, surely there are conservatives here who aren't trolls...

like, erm...

hmm.

Mictlan-somethingsomethingunpronounceable?
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Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10600 on: January 04, 2013, 11:50:04 am »

Well, just wanted to say that there is no real need for cutting spending. I'm living in a country where the state account for 50% of GDP and I dig it. Oh, and our deficit is half the US's (despite paying twice the interest rate), because we actually pay for that spending through taxes. I don't really know where you decided that you can't reduce deficit through taxation, but Belgium would like to tell you you're wrong.

Damn krakens. I always copy my posts before clicking post. Anyway, Belgium is a small country that just happens to be the center of the European Union bureaucracy.

Many of the government institutions and workers are located there, and they walk out outside those offices and spend their generous salaries on lunches and handbags and shoes in the local markets. That becomes taxable income to the shopkeepers. It's hard to replicate Belgium anywhere else, because you'd need 26 other countries willing to send you money and overpaid bureaucrats with a taste for the finer things in life.

Now, as to the effectiveness of tax raises, each country has different structural potentials in their tax system. the American structural potential is about 20% of GDP in tax revenue. Raise taxes or lower taxes. We always get around 20% of our GDP in tax revenues. Over a data collection period of 85 years. Here comes another image search chart...



You're getting about 20% of GDP as taxes in America, whether you like it or not. The structural revenue potential is many things, and most are not alterable by government policy. Cultural, geographic, whatever... They don't change fast or sometimes even ever.

Are you seriously suggesting that America's infrastructure can't be improved?  Like, look at mainland Europe or Japan's rail systems and tell me they aren't a) beneficial to their economies and b) better than the one in the US.

Yeah, I am. America's rail system is better. America's rail system is in the sky. We use airplanes for most travel, because America is a big country. HSR runs at 180 mph and passenger jets can hit 500 mph at altitude. There's no comparison when the distance is far enough that the plane can reach cruise altitude for a long stretch.

America isn't geographically similar to Europe or Japan. It's a big country on par with China, and travel patterns and maintenance costs will be comparable. China now has HSR from Hangzhou to Beijing. That is a very long stretch of HSR, like perhaps the planned Caltrans or whatever it is. The Chinese HSR hemorhages money. Fun fact. It operates at a huge loss that is siphoned into state-owned bank loans. It's a prestige project. And at prices of about 300RMB, it's caught between bargain-bin regular train seats that are 50RMB and 20 hours, and airplane tickets that are 700RMB and 2 hrs. It's the monkey in the middle. It never quite gets either passenger demographic here in China. I've ridden it, and it's pretty comfortable to be in a cabin meant for thirty that has less than ten!

Let California bite the bullet first. It'd be foolish to spend trillions plowing ahead on massive integration of HSR in the travel grid, when you barely know whether it pays off. It's not as sure a thing as it looks. Air travel is far better for a large country.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10601 on: January 04, 2013, 11:56:11 am »

Fun fact, every highway, airport, bridge and port in the US is a money loser.  They're kinda useful though...

You're getting about 20% of GDP as taxes in America, whether you like it or not. The structural revenue potential is many things, and most are not alterable by government policy. Cultural, geographic, whatever... They don't change fast or sometimes even ever.

Holy mother of making crap up batman!
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10602 on: January 04, 2013, 11:56:49 am »

So your modification to the analogy fails. The hero wants the villain to take the fall for shooting his girlfriend.

What you are ignoring here is that one side is a goddamn hostage taker!

Who is holding America hostage is merely a point of view. Either side could bend.

Generously, I permitted your view. I allowed putatively that Republicans are villains, and then I showed you how your hero is acting, if we grant that this is the case. A conventional storybook hero doesn't respond the way Obama has in the hostage situation. It doesn't matter that the villain grabbed the girl. The villain always grabs the girl. What I'm saying is, the hero doesn't react that way in the usual movie trope.

You have to assess whether the movie trope is wrong, or maybe your good guy isn't so good.
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Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10603 on: January 04, 2013, 12:02:30 pm »

Fun fact, every highway, airport, bridge and port in the US is a money loser.  They're kinda useful though...

And HSR would probably be kinda not useful, given the parallels to China geographically, and the fact that few people want to use HSR compared to the alternatives in China. It was a glamor project. You think America can afford a glamor project right now?

Quote
You're getting about 20% of GDP as taxes in America.

Holy mother of making crap up batman!

View enclosed chart. 85 years. Approximately 20% of GDP in tax revenues over multiple top-rate tax policies.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10604 on: January 04, 2013, 12:04:00 pm »

Who is holding America hostage is merely a point of view. Either side could bend.

No it's not.  This crises existed because Republicans made a list of demands.  Democrats did not make a list of demands.  So cut the subjective crap.

Last debt ceiling Republicans insisted on spending cuts or they would destroy the world economy.  This is nihilistic asshole behavior.  Democrats did not demand tax hikes at the threat of being nihilistic assholes.

Your side is assholes, get over it or stop supporting them.

To repeat:
Quote from: Lincoln Cooperstown Address
Under all these circumstances, do you really feel yourselves justified to break up this Government unless such a court decision as yours is, shall be at once submitted to as a conclusive and final rule of political action? But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

View enclosed chart. 85 years. Approximately 20% of GDP in tax revenues over multiple top-rate tax policies.

So?  That's because our politics has decided on those tax levels.  You might as well say that it's a law of the universe that the speed limit is 65 miles per hour.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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