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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 751546 times)

mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10515 on: December 31, 2012, 08:25:05 pm »

The Fiscal cliff is the equivalent of cutting ourselves to pour a cup, then selling our blood to the chinese while they look on in horror, and STILL not having enough to be debt-free.

Well we wouldn't have been debt free but the deficit would have fallen to the level where it would be shrinking as a share of GDP by 2015.

Check out this here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/20/choose-your-own-fiscal-cliff-adventure/

The default scenario is if we went off the fiscal cliff.  You can see that it results in the deficit getting smaller very quickly (but the economy suffering as a result.)  This gets us close to a budget surplus.  All it would take would be a minor tweak to get to surplus at that point, for instance a carbon tax.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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misko27

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10516 on: January 01, 2013, 12:46:09 am »

Times up, clock's finished and, I have no fucking clue what happened. I see thirty conflicting reports. Reporters, get on it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10517 on: January 01, 2013, 01:13:33 am »

Obama would have to be a colossal idiot to cave at this point. This is going to fall on the Republicans, particularly the hardliners, and everyone knows it.
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misko27

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10518 on: January 01, 2013, 01:28:00 am »

It appears he has spiked the football, as republicans are fond of accusing him. However, he did immediately win, so I guess is okay.
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darkflagrance

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10519 on: January 01, 2013, 01:28:17 am »

They're gonna compromise in a couple weeks and then set the changes to apply January 1 so that we don't jump the cliff. It came down to the wire after all.
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Criptfeind

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10520 on: January 01, 2013, 05:46:31 am »

everyone knows it.

Who is everyone though? It seems to me that Republican "everybody" is going to blame the Democrats no matter what.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10521 on: January 01, 2013, 11:53:47 am »

It seems like the early reports I read were very misleading.  The sequester cuts are still happening, just delayed by two months.  So this strikes me as a very bad no good deal.

Obama seems to be thinking that if republicans let the sequester go through without more tax hikes then everyone will blame the republicans because they gave nothing away.  Obama will make offer after offer, the republicans will shoot the offers down and in the end it's the meanie republicans that everyone will (correctly blame).

My thinking is big fucking deal.  The republicans dont care that people will blame them, they have already hit rock bottom in the blame department.  But by letting the sequester go through in two months they can tank the economy and win the 2014 midterms.

How does Obama not understand at this point that he is dealing with nihilistic sociopaths?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Darvi

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10522 on: January 01, 2013, 12:21:47 pm »


How does Obama not understand at this point that he is dealing with nihilistic sociopaths?
I take offense to that.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10523 on: January 01, 2013, 12:48:19 pm »

So what did they accomplish again? Oh right, they kicked the can down the road, because the delusionally think they can somehow cut the deficit without massive spending cuts. Shoulda seen that one coming.
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PanH

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10524 on: January 01, 2013, 01:04:07 pm »


How does Obama not understand at this point that he is dealing with nihilistic sociopaths?
I take offense to that.
As a nihilist sociopath ?
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10525 on: January 01, 2013, 01:13:58 pm »


How does Obama not understand at this point that he is dealing with nihilistic sociopaths?
I take offense to that.
Don't like being compared to Republicans, huh?
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10526 on: January 01, 2013, 01:44:22 pm »

So what did they accomplish again? Oh right, they kicked the can down the road, because the delusionally think they can somehow cut the deficit without massive spending cuts. Shoulda seen that one coming.

Go to the link I provided before to see what you are saying actually compares to reality: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/20/choose-your-own-fiscal-cliff-adventure/

If you want to see what massive spending cuts do without repealing the Bush tax cuts then select extend the Bush tax cuts for low/middle and upper income people.  The result is an average deficit of around 750 billion for the next decade.

If you want to see what just ending the tax cuts would do without touching spending 1 cent then select both repeal the sequester options (domestic and military).  The result is an average deficit of around 300 billion.  That would be a level at which debt was not growing as a share of GDP.

Now let's just go crazy and imagine that democrats had complete control of the budget.  We cancel the sequester entirely and extend the payroll tax holiday for a year.  Then we eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction and take global warming action with a carbon tax and a gas tax.  The result of this would be that we would shrink the deficit down to very small levels and erase it in 2021.  Incidentally the CBO report indicated that this option would lead to a robust economic recovery in 2013 as austerity stops dragging us down.  The result of all of this is that deficits are higher then if we just let the Bush tax cuts expire and did nothing more.  And this is even after you've sacrificed the sacred calves like providing wounded veterans with decent health benefits.

Then let's try the full libertarian approach...  First we completely destroy Medicare, turn it over to the states, make the federal contribution max out at $5.5k a person and raise the age by another two years.  Then we gut social security, raise the age two years for both partial and full benefits, lower the growth rate dramatically.  Then we cut federal employee pay for both civilians and the military.  Then we cut both highway and NIH funding.  We're basically giving the libertarians every concrete proposal they've asked for (so none of the pie in the sky crap that can't be judged.)  This would greatly increase the poverty rate, especially for old people and undermine a lot of essential government functions.

But I'm sure that the CBO is just a bunch of liberal crooks.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10527 on: January 01, 2013, 02:17:37 pm »

Go to the link I provided before to see what you are saying actually compares to reality: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/20/choose-your-own-fiscal-cliff-adventure/

Seems to be missing a lot of the simpler cuts that could be made that aren't included in the default "fiscal cliff", unfortunately.

If you want to see what massive spending cuts do without repealing the Bush tax cuts then select extend the Bush tax cuts for low/middle and upper income people.  The result is an average deficit of around 750 billion for the next decade.

What do you consider "massive spending cuts"? Well over a trillion in spending cuts could be achieved, with further tax cuts, and without so much as touching the funding of Medicare or Social Security, the end result being a surplus by 2016. Of course, that's unlikely to happen, especially since it requires the cutting of many sacred cows (The DoD, Housing, and Medicaid in particular), but it wouldn't run "an average deficit of 750 billion over the next decade".

Now let's just go crazy and imagine that democrats had complete control of the budget.  We cancel the sequester entirely and extend the payroll tax holiday for a year.  Then we eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction and take global warming action with a carbon tax and a gas tax.  The result of this would be that we would shrink the deficit down to very small levels and erase it in 2021.  Incidentally the CBO report indicated that this option would lead to a robust economic recovery in 2013 as austerity stops dragging us down.  The result of all of this is that deficits are higher then if we just let the Bush tax cuts expire and did nothing more.  And this is even after you've sacrificed the sacred calves like providing wounded veterans with decent health benefits.

This is assuming that carbon and gas taxes don't cause the companies that would otherwise pay the most to pull a Depardieu and make a break for it, or at least find ways to avoid paying it. And assuming the CBO's "robust recovery" predictions are realistic (protip: they aren't, and I'll get to that).

Quote
Then let's try the full libertarian approach...  First we completely destroy Medicare, turn it over to the states, make the federal contribution max out at $5.5k a person and raise the age by another two years.  Then we gut social security, raise the age two years for both partial and full benefits, lower the growth rate dramatically.  Then we cut federal employee pay for both civilians and the military.  Then we cut both highway and NIH funding.  We're basically giving the libertarians every concrete proposal they've asked for (so none of the pie in the sky crap that can't be judged.)  This would greatly increase the poverty rate, especially for old people and undermine a lot of essential government functions.

Those are some odd things to cut from first, all things considered. Especially considering that you didn't even mention the DoD cuts that would easily be the largest and first to go.
Quote
But I'm sure that the CBO is just a bunch of liberal crooks.

Nah, if 2000-2009 is of any indication, they're just unreastically optimistic. Lets see:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "Bush Tax Cuts expire and suddenly revenue!" scenario that you're basing your argument around also assumes that (A) There is already a "robust recovery" occurring for those new revenues to come from (there isn't) and (B) This tax increase will have no effect whatsoever on the economy (see: the Laffer Curve). If you even predict mildly negative things such as a not-so-robust recovery or marginally less revenues from taxes, then the predicted deficit shoots up to several times what it was originally predicted to be. God forbid there be anything incredibly drastic, like a modest economic contraction of some kind in the next 5-10 years, because then the deficit REALLY shoots up.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10528 on: January 01, 2013, 02:29:42 pm »

Do you remember the part where I said
We're basically giving the libertarians every concrete proposal they've asked for (so none of the pie in the sky crap that can't be judged.)

And then you come back with a bunch of pie in the sky crap that can't be judged...

A broken clock is predictable...
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10529 on: January 01, 2013, 03:31:21 pm »

Do you remember the part where I said
We're basically giving the libertarians every concrete proposal they've asked for (so none of the pie in the sky crap that can't be judged.)

And then you come back with a bunch of pie in the sky crap that can't be judged...

A broken clock is predictable...

Don't bother talking about how useless everything you've provided so far has been shown to be or anything.

I didn't know concrete DoD cuts, direct cuts from programs, or the scrapping of certain Federal departments counted as "impossible to judge", but okay. Certainly easier to judge than "tax increases", which have no guaranteed associated increase in revenue whatsoever, though.

EDIT: I've not a clue where your "every concrete proposal" came from unless you literally made it up on the spot, but there are plenty of examples of "libertarian budgets" out there with very clear cuts that aren't at all vague. For example, the Paul plan has some extremely specific cuts provided, so I'm kind of surprised you just made something up, or else used something obscure, when there's a very large, very drastic example you could use to claim would result in the end of days.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:39:12 pm by GreatJustice »
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?
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