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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763801 times)

tahujdt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10245 on: December 11, 2012, 06:17:35 pm »

Hey, Obama's for tax cuts too. Spending cuts and tax cuts, two ways to help the government. What would be a good idea would be to give tax cuts to businesses that are actively hiring and growing. That would stimulate the economy much better then just inefficiently pouring billions of dollars into it.
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10246 on: December 11, 2012, 06:19:12 pm »

No! All cuts are good! They're cuts! How can you not see it?

Republicans want to cut all programs. This is not something that they want just to sabotage the Dems, they want to avoid the incoming crisis. Extending the Bush tax cuts would be a good thing, but better if we could get spending cuts too. Also, I'd like to point out the Mr. Obama could have offered the tax cuts at any time, but he chooses to do so now because he knows the Republicans are after something bigger. Spending cuts. Also, Obama had promised to cut spending before, but he hasn't. Government will not cut spending voluntarily, so we need to do it involuntarily. That is, force the spending cuts that happen if Democrats don't agree to compromise.

Of course government spending is going up - it's called inflation, and (though I guess for America this isn''t as much of a problem) the aging of society.
And Obama offered the tax cuts way back during the original debt crisis, offering the republicans a very generous (read: insane and unacceptable to any true liberal, but the best we'll get) deal. They didn't take it and instead chose to do brinkmanship the like of which has not been seen since Nikita Khrushchev.
The republicans are holding the country hostage - and you try to tell us that it's morally wrong for Obama to use the few bargaining chips he has?
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kaijyuu

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10247 on: December 11, 2012, 06:19:22 pm »

Or you know, raise taxes. The horror.

Which ones? How much?
A question I'm unable to answer. Though notably, if you bring up "spending cuts," I have the ability ask exactly the same question of "which ones and how much."

Neither raising taxes nor cutting spending is inherently bad. What IS inherently bad is dogmatically saying we should only do one or the other.
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tahujdt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10248 on: December 11, 2012, 06:23:18 pm »

No! All cuts are good! They're cuts! How can you not see it?

Republicans want to cut all programs. This is not something that they want just to sabotage the Dems, they want to avoid the incoming crisis. Extending the Bush tax cuts would be a good thing, but better if we could get spending cuts too. Also, I'd like to point out the Mr. Obama could have offered the tax cuts at any time, but he chooses to do so now because he knows the Republicans are after something bigger. Spending cuts. Also, Obama had promised to cut spending before, but he hasn't. Government will not cut spending voluntarily, so we need to do it involuntarily. That is, force the spending cuts that happen if Democrats don't agree to compromise.

Of course government spending is going up - it's called inflation, and (though I guess for America this isn''t as much of a problem) the aging of society.
And Obama offered the tax cuts way back during the original debt crisis, offering the republicans a very generous (read: insane and unacceptable to any true liberal, but the best we'll get) deal. They didn't take it and instead chose to do brinkmanship the like of which has not been seen since Nikita Khrushchev.
The republicans are holding the country hostage - and you try to tell us that it's morally wrong for Obama to use the few bargaining chips he has?
It's going up much faster then inflation, that's for sure. Also, as I keep saying, Republicans don't want tax cuts more than spending cuts.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10249 on: December 11, 2012, 06:24:39 pm »

Hey, Obama's for tax cuts too. Spending cuts and tax cuts, two ways to help the government. What would be a good idea would be to give tax cuts to businesses that are actively hiring and growing. That would stimulate the economy much better then just inefficiently pouring billions of dollars into it.

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Or you know, raise taxes. The horror.

Which ones? How much?
A question I'm unable to answer. Though notably, if you bring up "spending cuts," I have the ability ask exactly the same question of "which ones and how much."

Neither raising taxes nor cutting spending is inherently bad. What IS inherently bad is dogmatically saying we should only do one or the other.

Military cuts and corporate subsidies would probably be the most straightforward, though it seems like even "small government" Republicans won't even consider them. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid all should be cut or at least scaled back in some way, and yes I know that's politically unfeasible in the present political climate.

Really, Americans ought to figure out whether they prefer "big government social programs" with all the taxes and side effects those have, or whether they prefer a "low tax low regulation pro-business" government without all of those programs. You can't have it both ways.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10250 on: December 11, 2012, 06:26:57 pm »

Really, Americans ought to figure out whether they prefer "big government social programs" with all the taxes and side effects those have, or whether they prefer a "low tax low regulation pro-business" government without all of those programs. You can't have it both ways.
I agree, and they should choose the one that won't cause the recession to go on forever.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10251 on: December 11, 2012, 06:36:06 pm »

Really, Americans ought to figure out whether they prefer "big government social programs" with all the taxes and side effects those have, or whether they prefer a "low tax low regulation pro-business" government without all of those programs. You can't have it both ways.
I agree, and they should choose the one that won't cause the recession to go on forever.

We agree on both points then.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10252 on: December 11, 2012, 06:40:38 pm »

That is the joke.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10253 on: December 11, 2012, 06:44:31 pm »

Republicans want to cut all programs.
You keep saying this, but neither their rhetoric nor their actions bear this out. Take the Ryan plan - it significantly increased government spending. And he's considered pretty conservative. In fact, everything approaching a Republican budget proposal so far has increased overall government spending. If Republican's wanted to cut spending across the board, why hasn't anyone in the party proposed these sort of across the board cuts? Or, hell, any sort of overall cut at all?

Quote
Government will not cut spending voluntarily, so we need to do it involuntarily. That is, force the spending cuts that happen if Democrats don't agree to compromise.
And the Republican's have made it quite clear they have no desire to cut spending, only to shift it into their preferred programs. And here's an interesting fact: If you are spending more than you are taxing, and you cut spending and also cut taxes by the same amount, you actually INCREASE the size of the deficit. The fact that you claim there is a disaster coming thanks to the debt, followed by you arguing we should do a thing that makes it worse, makes me believe you either don't understand what you are saying or that you are being facetious. If your goal is ultimately to balance the budget, and you believe this is the highest priority, you would only ever be willing to cut taxes if it would increase government income.

The Republican's have pushed to cut taxes, and don't usually bother to argue any specific tax would would increase this income. Ergo, balancing the budget and fighting the debt is, to put it most politely, not their highest priority. Combined with their stubborn insistence on increasing the deficit at all costs, I'd wager it's not even near the top of the list, except rhetorically. (Which sucks, because I'd be willing to accept spending cuts and consider supporting the Republicans if I thought a reduction in the debt was the ultimate goal. It is quite clear, however, that it is not.)

Which leaves the question of "what is"?

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What would be a good idea would be to give tax cuts to businesses that are actively hiring and growing. That would stimulate the economy much better then just inefficiently pouring billions of dollars into it.
Also, this is just outright wrong.  We've had multiple multi-page back and forths over this issue multiple times over the course of this thread, with a metric ton of evidence brought into play. And tax cuts (at least at our tax rates) of /any/ sort turn out to be terribly inefficient. Turns out the best way to stimulate the economy is food stamps, for a while bunch of reasons. You have to get to rates much higher than ours before tax begin having a decent return on investment.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10254 on: December 11, 2012, 06:49:02 pm »

Actual money would be somewhat better than foodstamps, considering that foodstamps just artificially limit the stimulus and create a black market.  But hey, can't have them lazy poors getting too uppity.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10255 on: December 11, 2012, 06:50:15 pm »

Actually, I think foodstamps managed to edge out even direct cash. I can't remember why.

whether they prefer a "low tax low regulation pro-business" government without all of those programs. You can't have it both ways.

I don't think you can have it that way at all, at least, not without having a period of "high tax" before-hand, anyway, to pay off the debt. And making sure the "pro-business" doesn't cost to much. At least if you're talking Republican-style pro-business, which tends to get rather expensive on the government spending front.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 06:53:03 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10256 on: December 11, 2012, 06:52:09 pm »

You mean comparing foodstamps to equal amounts of cash given to the same people?
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10257 on: December 11, 2012, 06:52:44 pm »

Presumably because you can hoard cash, but good luck hoarding food stamps.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10258 on: December 11, 2012, 06:53:53 pm »

I think that was basically it, yeah. Food stamps get spent quicker, resulting in a larger stimulus effect, while cash tends to be saved more often.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10259 on: December 11, 2012, 06:56:40 pm »

It'd probably make sense to have some kind of money with an expiry date in that case.
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