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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763925 times)

Willfor

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10065 on: December 02, 2012, 02:49:02 pm »

Alternate Canada?
Also known as Alberta.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10066 on: December 02, 2012, 03:20:30 pm »

Someone please refresh my memory, where and when did I say that the tax code doesn't distingush?

I talked about taxing income, where the hell did old/new money come from?

For the record, I don't care when a coin was minted or a bill printed. If you save it it isn't my business, but when you first get it, you gotta give a fair and equitable cut to the government on par with what else you are making. Got a million dollars and earned a penny? Give them fractions of a penny up. Got a penny and earned a million dollars? Give them fractions of a million up.
As for paying because the rich leave... Happily. In a heartbeat.

And... Lack of minimum wage law is like sports without drug testing. If you don't know why that's a bad thing, you got a lot to learn.

Either way, religious texts don't feed bellies, only wars. Food stamps is worth the top 10 NGOs. Prove otherwise.
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Andrew425

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10067 on: December 02, 2012, 03:32:04 pm »

As for social security why not make it a volunteer program after retirement?

20 days in a year or you get 85% of what you would before.

Also is the US doing clawbacks like in Canada (OAS)?
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10068 on: December 02, 2012, 03:34:53 pm »

At some point GreatJustice went so far into the fires of the flamewars that even I shied away.  He scares me a little.
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10069 on: December 02, 2012, 05:08:44 pm »

http://www.gizoogle.net/bing.php?search=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bay12forums.com%2Fsmf%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D98262.10140%3Btopicseen&se=Bling+dis+shiznit
This makes Great Justices comment for more readable.
when tha straight-up original gangsta minimum wages was put up in place
This is great.
He scares me a little.
It's threads like these that make me thankful that probably none of us (explicitly including me) will ever wield actual political power.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10070 on: December 02, 2012, 05:10:58 pm »

I like how he compared a country being one big warzone with a one being a socialist country xD

It could always be both, but in the case of African countries its not exactly a secret that socialism didn't work so well (see: Tanzania)

Alternate Canada?
Also known as Alberta.

Actually, Ontario, believe it or not. Mind, the southern part of Ontario across from Detroit where everyone uses Fahrenheit, the Imperial system, and shops across the river, but still Ontario. I'm far too non-religious to be a crazed Albertan.

Someone please refresh my memory, where and when did I say that the tax code doesn't distingush?

I talked about taxing income, where the hell did old/new money come from?

For the record, I don't care when a coin was minted or a bill printed. If you save it it isn't my business, but when you first get it, you gotta give a fair and equitable cut to the government on par with what else you are making. Got a million dollars and earned a penny? Give them fractions of a penny up. Got a penny and earned a million dollars? Give them fractions of a million up.
As for paying because the rich leave... Happily. In a heartbeat.

And... Lack of minimum wage law is like sports without drug testing. If you don't know why that's a bad thing, you got a lot to learn.

Either way, religious texts don't feed bellies, only wars. Food stamps is worth the top 10 NGOs. Prove otherwise.

"New money" as in money people just began to earn, "old money" as in money the person started out with. If you take income, the people who're already rich aren't significantly affected since they don't really need an income, whereas the people who are just becoming rich or else are actually using their money (eg. the guy who borrows against everything he owns to start a business and strikes it rich after a point) get taxed out of existence.

Well, a right-wing guy - that stuff was to be expected. "GDP is increased by spending" - it's the gross national product, so if I invest in a machine to produce stuff (or invest money by lending to someone who then goes out to buy a machine), I'm increasing GDP through my investment (unless the stuff that's produced isn't bought, I know. But then that was a bad investment anyway.)

Of course *most rich people* have *old money*, it's not like there's been a major change in how the rich get and stay rich in the past decades. And the inflation doesn't apply to *really huge* piles of money, so it's totally unfair to tax high income. And *sure*, hard-working is equivalent to getting well paid.

And yeah, an employer will pay the people the wages he thinks they *deserve*, not the ones he thinks he can get away with. And sure, employees are in a *great* position for negotiations because the American unions are *strong*.

Hey, let me ask you this: What do you think of unions, GreatJustice?

They're fine so long as they remain nonviolent. Striking is fine, negotiations, etc are all okay. Beating up scabs, breaking shit and shooting company property aren't. If the workers themselves are actually worth what they're striking for, then hiring scabs won't be profitable and the company will be forced to give up.

http://www.gizoogle.net/bing.php?search=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bay12forums.com%2Fsmf%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D98262.10140%3Btopicseen&se=Bling+dis+shiznit
This makes Great Justices comment for more readable.

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Helgoland

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Dutchling

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10072 on: December 02, 2012, 05:16:41 pm »

ogod that is awesome.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10073 on: December 02, 2012, 06:39:49 pm »

Quote from: GreatJustice
Furthermore, tha overwhelmin majoritizzle of minimum wage workers aren't raisin crews, n' can live off of such lil' small-ass incomes fo' a time.

Quote of the day.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10074 on: December 02, 2012, 06:55:01 pm »

Quote from: GreatJustice
Furthermore, tha overwhelmin majoritizzle of minimum wage workers aren't raisin crews, n' can live off of such lil' small-ass incomes fo' a time.

Quote of the day.

And on top of that it isn't even remotely true even in its original.
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alexandertnt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10075 on: December 02, 2012, 08:09:41 pm »

Yes, the government is more reliable in securing money for the poor. It also has far less motivation to give it out properly, has a standing army of bureaucrats involved in gathering aforementioned money, and creates a pile of unintentional problems along the way.

So ensure that the bureaucrats are reasonably seperated from the system? There are more than one way to fix potential problems other than "private".


Yet even those "efficient" programs are still pretty damn expensive, and they've got problems that even the US doesn't have to boot (eg. very long waiting lists for treatment).

It's fairly well documented that the bulk of American healthcare expense growth occurred following the times where the government tried to make it "more affordable". Remember, in 1964, when Medicare was introduced to deal with costs, the inflation adjusted yearly cost of healthcare was on average in the realm of $3,000. It sure didn't solve that problem!

Of course those programs are expensive, providing health care to everyone is going to be expensive, but it is more efficient then America's current "system". Efficient does not imply cheap in absolute terms.

The waiting lists do not (mostly) exist for for reasons that lead to similar effects. For example people who can not afford cover do not go into surgery, as opposed to someone in a country with Universal Health Care having to wait some time. The result is the people who can go into health care (more wealthy) have short lists and everyone else has lists of a length of infinite. The number of people who can get in are also reduced by waste-of-money procedures like plastic surgery encouraged by the private sector.

I have already agreed that America's Medicare is pretty shoddy, I am not disputing many of the problems it has caused. I have suggested an alternative solution (other than defaulting to privatisation), one which works quite well in many countries where it is implemented (with the NHS often ranked first in the world for health care) and can provide more balanced access to resources.

What you have stated is not evicence agains't government intervention in health care, just governmnet intervention in that case.


This would apply to everyone who actually worked reliably over a long term. Employers generally tend to hire those with lots of work experience, even if they don't have many skills, because they know they'll come to work on time, do their job, etc rather than skip work or do a bad job and get fired. The number of people actually getting paid $2 an hour would be vanishingly small, and largely composed of people with no prior work experience.

Anyone who works hard and reliably will most like earn decent money (and anyone who does not get fired), I do not see how the minimum wage (very low in the USA compared to most other countries) would change this. I do not see how this will cause the number of people who get paid effectively nothing to shrink.

That is not speaking of the poverty cycle. Being born into a poor family may make it very hard to get any meaningful experience when you have to work a McJob just to pay for food.

A solution perhaps is public funding of education (helping avoid college students going broke for example)? It would help ensure that people are educated as America moves towards a service economy.

Yet the richest people aren't necessarily in that bracket, whereas the generally hardest working are. Again, it doesn't distinguish between how long you've been making over that, whether the money is actually going to your benefit, etc. If I work five years for next to nothing and then in one year my project works out and I make $500,000, do I actually have enough money? In actuality, I've been making $50,000 a year, yet the government treats this as though I'm "rich".

That is why I suggested we put them in this bracket (Robin Hood taxes, for example). If you manage to go 5 years and the sixth you ake $500,000 then you have made $500,000 in one year. You have survived those 5 years so I don't see how that money would end up going back in time to do anything. (if someone earned 50,000 a year, they would pay bills and not much else. If someone scraped by for 5 years (maby on welfare...), and earned 500,000 the next, they would go out and purchase a fast car etc, not improve the quality of their life for the years they have already lived). It would also suggest that the company has earned alot of money (sine that is not counted as personal income).


There is crowding out because the people most able to create such infrastructure in the first place end up hired by the government instead. The internet may not be the same as it is today without ARPANET, but it seems likely that something similar would have been created otherwise. Plus, private companies created just about everything the government needed to make the internet possible in the first place, AND were responsible for it being something actually worth using today. For example:

I never said anything about private corporations not contributing significantly to anything. Private corporations often do good research (which often still costs buttloads of money, and sometimes leads nowhere. But this is the nature of research). I do not dispute this.

Quote
"most useful inventions have a tendency to be outlandishly expensive for what they're worth", Is this an opinion?

Do you think trillions of dollars per noteworthy invention from the DoD are worth it, considering the fact that many of them may very well have been developed for less a bit later regardless?

So in other words yes. I do not know of any individual invention that cost trillions of dollars, yet alone "per" invention. That is absurd.

An invention is conceptualised, and costs butloads to bring into reality prematuraly. This is mostly the result of the Cold War, and the "look how much shinier our millitary technology is than yours" thing going on. Much money was wasted during the Cold War due to this.

Or people are paid to come up with inventions. In which you can't "develop" these inventions later at will without the ability to predict the future.

See above. It's worth noting that a lot of the reason European healthcare is cheaper is because they actually do look for cost cutting measures. In the US, there is a gigantic system of government imposed regulations that make costs go up by necessity. For example, a doctor will almost always recommend the "best" treatment, even when it costs 100x as much and is only 2x as effective, an insurance company will pay for it (insulating the consumer from the costs) because of various state mandates, the pharmaceutical companies will charge insane amounts because they're basically a cartel (due to high costs of entry imposed by the FDA among others) and because of patent law. If some new "wonder drug" comes out with significantly better results than older drugs but insanely high costs, the American doctor is obligated to recommend it regardless of cost whereas the European doctor will either wait for the generic version of it to come out at significantly cheaper cost or else recommend a cheaper treatment.

Any legislation causing this to happen is something that I agree is a poor idea, and should be fixed. But this is just a further example of the shambles that is the US health system is, and how looking to Europe may yield a better system (after some modifications to deal with the size of the country, the more "state" focused thing the US has going on, and irrational fear of socialism in the form of association fallacies).

Patents in regards to medicine are pretty busted up at the moment. This needs changing to allow generic medicine to enter the market sooner.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10076 on: December 02, 2012, 08:31:09 pm »

At some point GreatJustice went so far into the fires of the flamewars that even I shied away.  He scares me a little.
The derision to serious responses ratio is rising, at least.  I finally got to do something before it was cool.
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10077 on: December 02, 2012, 09:02:00 pm »

irrational fear of socialism in the form of association fallacies
This I believe is the biggest problem of current US politics; every time someone brings up a 'left' idea, there's cries of socialism all over the place.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Reelya

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10078 on: December 02, 2012, 10:34:34 pm »

More specifically, the same ideas can be thought up by a Republican, with no outcry, but as soon as  a Democrat says "that's a good idea", it's socialism.

Nobody is pushing socialism whatsoever, or any "real" left-wing ideas.

Regulated capitalism with a safety-net isn't socialism, nor is it something solely promoted by "left wing" or liberal parties.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 10:36:18 pm by Reelya »
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scriver

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10079 on: December 03, 2012, 04:24:40 am »

It's definitely a socialist policy. The problem is not them saying it's socialism, which it is, it's people thinking socialism is a bad thing. Which it isn't.
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