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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763831 times)

Frumple

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9255 on: November 12, 2012, 01:09:55 am »

I would have to flee.  My state is one of those with a petition to secede.
Snickersnort. At noon today, that set of petitions (via the numbers in the link provided) had a number of signatories... well, being fair, a bit less than three times the population of the county I'm in. Which is one of the ten or so least populated ones in Florida.

S'gone up a bit since then, though. There's something like 14k sigs on the Texas petition. Which is so far below a percent of Texas's population the default windows calculator went into exponential trying to divide the 14 thousand by 25 million or so. Working it out a bit better, it's something like .056% of the population. Not exactly a majority.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, SG.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9256 on: November 12, 2012, 01:12:38 am »

I would have to flee.  My state is one of those with a petition to secede.

Mine too.

BTW: the governor of Texas DID start this petition drive.
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Scelly9

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9257 on: November 12, 2012, 01:13:52 am »

The governor of Texas DID start this petition drive.
That's actually a bit worrying.
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Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9258 on: November 12, 2012, 01:14:07 am »

Note that those aren't anything approaching real political talks. They're those 25k-signature whitehouse.gov internet petitions; only two states have more than 1000 signatures, and the Texas one is only at around 10k signatures. They mean absolutely nothing and represent the tiny fraction of the population that we already knew was crazy. Even if there were one hundred thousand signatures on one of them, it would still be meaningless. Those petitions have no legal weight and the number of people represented are a very, very small minority.

Re: Gov. of Texas: Sounds like more rhetoric and political grandstanding, which is the height of originality around here.  ::)
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kaijyuu

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9259 on: November 12, 2012, 01:14:33 am »

Hasn't Texas been wanting to secede for quite some time now?
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Bohandas

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9260 on: November 12, 2012, 01:15:02 am »

http://www.examiner.com/article/15-states-including-texas-have-filed-a-petition-to-secede-from-the-united-states-1

15 states petition the obama administration to allow them to peacefully secede from the union in the wake of the reelection of a Obama.

Yea. That is actually happening.


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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9261 on: November 12, 2012, 01:16:03 am »

Hasn't Texas been wanting to secede for quite some time now?
Texas likes to talk, but I doubt they have any serious will to secede.
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Bohandas

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9262 on: November 12, 2012, 01:17:46 am »

B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower.

What about China?

Old equipment mostly, trying to get newer stuff as fast as they can, generally without the doctrine to employ it properly. Giant army that hasn't fought a real war since the bamboo curtain fell down,....

They don't need an army. They have the bomb, the means to deliver it, and a completely morally bankrupt government.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9263 on: November 12, 2012, 01:20:00 am »

I would have to flee.  My state is one of those with a petition to secede.
Snickersnort. At noon today, that set of petitions (via the numbers in the link provided) had a number of signatories... well, being fair, a bit less than three times the population of the county I'm in. Which is one of the ten or so least populated ones in Florida.

S'gone up a bit since then, though. There's something like 14k sigs on the Texas petition. Which is so far below a percent of Texas's population the default windows calculator went into exponential trying to divide the 14 thousand by 25 million or so. Working it out a bit better, it's something like .056% of the population. Not exactly a majority.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, SG.

Yeah, I was never actually worried about it.

If it did happen, I would absolutely GTFO.
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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9264 on: November 12, 2012, 01:21:47 am »

I recall secession talks happening the last time Obama won too. It's more grandstanding by the Tea Party types.

Not that I would mind it if Texas seceded on the condition that its government would always support the emigration of anyone who wanted to leave that wasn't convicted of a violent felony, immediately and permanently disarm any WMDs, and never bothered the rest of us again.
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Strife26

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9265 on: November 12, 2012, 01:24:31 am »

A) On a large scale, I would certainly stand behind the claim that solar is not a large scale solution. I mean, even assuming massive gains in solar efficiency, life-span of panels, price, ect. it's gonna be a long, hard fought argument to convince me that the amount of land and management it'd take would be worth it. Now, nuclear, geothermal, and a nice, healthy chunk of coal gasification, that's a whole
'nother ball game.
Solar is more than PV, Strife. PV wouldn't be good for heavy industry, but there are other types of solar power. PV is excellent for residential power, however. There is also the added bonus that it gives us a robust and decentralized power grid that cannot be attacked effectively, unlike centralized powerplants.

Geothermal is the real fools errand, I'm afraid. There are few locations in which we can implement it and geothermal vents have not proven to be as renewable as previously thought. Geothermal is going to have to be shelved until we can tap the mantel.

Coal has currently unacceptable environmental consequences. Improvements such as CCS and location restrictions are needed, unfortunately the industry fights hard against them and has plenty of money to bribe the legislature.

Nuclear is....okay. Still way more fickle and dangerous than renewables, and also has the centralization problem. I won't state active opposition, but we have better options available to us.

I'd say that Nuclear's better than you give it credit for, being that it's a helluva lot closer to being a good idea *right now* than any other option. Coal's got the pretty major advantage of being domestic and a not inconsiderable chunk of blue collar work, besides the political capital factor. And geothermal's iffy, sure, but I see no reason not to push on ahead full steam trying to figure out how to tap the mantel, or at the least make those cool zero-input house-temperature moderators more economical.


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B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower. Who knows how long that'll lost?

We can't expend them without serious consequences. Fossil fuels are a Faustian bargain, Strife. A double-edged sword, a treacherous ally, whatever. Renewables, as the name suggests, last. We are only better off with fossil fuels in the extreme short term. Everything else goes to the renewables.
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And no, I'd very much guess that the rest of the world will very politely tell us and the UN to fuck off until everything's gone completely to shit. Not that it's not worthwhile for us to do these things, but I don't think that the US completely greenificating it's self would push back the clock all that much.
The US, EU, and PRC are responsible for the vast majority of C02 emissions. We don't need to worry overmuch about African dictatorships adopting green energy. The three most important areas for C02 reduction are luckily also the ones that understand the need for it. Say what you will about the PRC, their leadership isn't stupid. They'll exploit while they can grow from it, but that age is quickly coming to and end. [/quote]

I dunno, that'd depend on how you define stupid. Let's say that the big three cut our emissions to hell and back. How long until the rest of the second and third and first world work themselves right up to where we left off, pushed by the exact same economic pressures to make the most of what people want at the best prices? Fifteen years? Twenty-five? Not much from where I stand, you know?

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C) Yeah, that's bad. However, that's clearly within what should be regulated by our own system without another iota of effort to environmental causes. That's a problem with agency capture mostly, I'd say, a pretty tangental issue.
It is not a tangental issue. The same forces hindering environmental protection are the same ones that throw their money at Congress to be able to do this sort of stuff.
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I'd always take projections like the sinking of Florida with a grain of salt. Yeah, it's perfectly possible, but how much can we affect it?
Consider:
Point A. Florida is not underwater.

Point B. Florida is going to be underwater due to sea rise.

Point C. Sea rise is due to our C02 emissions.

Therefore: We can prevent Florida from being underwater by lessening C02 emissions.
[/quote]

Yes, maybe, maybe. Now, I'm not willing to go through the source hunting to properly argue this, but how much damage have we already done irreparably? How much would the sea levels rise in next twenty years even without a CO2 overabundance?



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Moreover, is it worth tanking the US's remaining economic and therefore overall power on it?
If we do this we might lose some power. If we don't do this we will lose our power. Societal collapse does not a strong nation make.
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Is it worth dropping another one percent of people below the poverty line?
This is not why people are impoverished, but not acting will lead to more impoverished people as our civilization stops functioning.
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Not being as competitive?
Competitiveness is a result of economic prosperity, which we will not have if we can't feed our people or protect them from storms and flooding.
[/quote]
Yeah, but we can't have economic prosperity now if we're going to hobble ourselves in hopes that the future won't suck. And, I'd argue that if need be, we can certainly find a way to do all three.


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Reducing people's freedoms?
What are you even talking about?
Eh, I was almost drifting into a tangent there, honestly. Weak point that I didn't fully excise. How much of my personal freedom should we restrict for the cause of environmentalism? Should I still be able to take the two hour drive I did tonight? Should I still be able to conduct training in my tank? I mean, both of those things burn fuel, doncha know. There was also something about incandescent light bulbs, but it looked super weak even for this argument.

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And no, I don't believe your worse case scenario. We can always get better at using the resources we've got, and in any case, if stuff comes down to shooting, I'm confident in the United States remaining strong (and getting stronger, in fact) as a psuedo-nation-state.
Oh, well then, by all means, I'm glad you've got it figured out that we can just magic up more resources and institute martial law when things go to shit. Man, that is so much better than just keeping this all from happening in the first place.
[/quote]
Yeah, it is. Much rather have a US lead martial law in a world gone to shit, than a Chinese one ten years later. Give me a little credit here, okay, this is a stretchy, unprepared argument path I'm treading. The core point that the United States shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot over the environment is a perfectly valid one, though.
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Mech#4

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9266 on: November 12, 2012, 01:25:45 am »

I recall secession talks happening the last time Obama won too. It's more grandstanding by the Tea Party types.

Not that I would mind it if Texas seceded on the condition that its government would always support the emigration of anyone who wanted to leave that wasn't convicted of a violent felony, immediately and permanently disarm any WMDs, and never bothered the rest of us again.

Hm, if Texas left and Puerto Rico joined, it would save you from having to update your flag. :P
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Strife26

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9267 on: November 12, 2012, 01:29:47 am »

B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower.

What about China?

Old equipment mostly, trying to get newer stuff as fast as they can, generally without the doctrine to employ it properly. Giant army that hasn't fought a real war since the bamboo curtain fell down,....

They don't need an army. They have the bomb, the means to deliver it, and a completely morally bankrupt government.

Hey, we're already looking at environmental apocalypse, right? Why sweat a little fallout here and there with the utterly terrifying wild card that China's nukes present.

I mean, really, when you think about it properly, if we're forced to learn how to survive in an irradiated wasteland, how much more can Mother Earth throw at us, no matter how much CO2 we reasonably pump into the air, especially considering that when we were done, a lot of the world certainly wouldn't be doing it any more.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9268 on: November 12, 2012, 01:30:22 am »

It'll never happen. If Texas left, the Republicans can kiss goodbye to winning the presidency ever again. Of course, that's starting to happen with demographics, too, and they don't seem to care that much...
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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9269 on: November 12, 2012, 01:30:50 am »

Quote from: Strife26
-snip-

Wait, so as long as the 'States is okay, the rest of the world can go hang? Well screw you too.   :-\
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