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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763818 times)

Bohandas

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9240 on: November 12, 2012, 12:35:11 am »

What we need to do is find out just how high the water will come if the ice caps melt and buy up everything that will become beachfront property after all the current beachfront property is underwater.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9241 on: November 12, 2012, 12:35:54 am »

http://www.in.gov/apps/sos/election/general/general2012

umm.... really?.... no write-in candidates in my country received votes?.... Jill Stein didn't receive a single vote?.... bullshit.  I know for a fact she received at least two.  I think I'll be making a phone call tomorrow.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9242 on: November 12, 2012, 12:37:48 am »

Huh. It says that she got 181 votes for me.
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misko27

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9243 on: November 12, 2012, 12:38:32 am »

*Looks at map*

Stuff on west coast is owned entirely by feds. East coast, even inland is still to highly populated.

Damn Feds ruining small buisiness men who just want to profit in the upcoming post-apocayptic hellscape.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9244 on: November 12, 2012, 12:39:02 am »

Huh. It says that she got 181 votes for me.

That's statewide.  The link must default to that.  Look at Hendricks County.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

USEC_OFFICER

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9245 on: November 12, 2012, 12:40:27 am »

Huh. It says that she got 181 votes for me.

That's statewide.  The link must default to that.  Look at Hendricks County.

Ah. I hope that your phone call is usually productive then.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9246 on: November 12, 2012, 12:41:39 am »

Huh. It says that she got 181 votes for me.

That's statewide.  The link must default to that.  Look at Hendricks County.

Ah. I hope that your phone call is usually productive then.
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Strife26

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9247 on: November 12, 2012, 12:43:04 am »

Sure, but I'd like to note that all three of those points were perfectly rational and reasonable things to debate against.

A) On a large scale, I would certainly stand behind the claim that solar is not a large scale solution. I mean, even assuming massive gains in solar efficiency, life-span of panels, price, ect. it's gonna be a long, hard fought argument to convince me that the amount of land and management it'd take would be worth it. Now, nuclear, geothermal, and a nice, healthy chunk of coal gasification, that's a whole
'nother ball game.

However, the overall point to take from that is that we *don't* know what the best course of action to take is. Now, if I, Strife26 of Bay12 made policy, pouring money into figuring our what course of action we should take would be what I'd do. (or it'd be on the list, honestly. I'd imagine I'd burn through whatever political capital I had before then, most likely)

B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower. Who knows how long that'll lost? I'd also strongly contend that coal and oil are so cheap largely because that's what we're tooled to use and because coal's domestic (and our domestic oil reserves aren't anything to sneeze at either) while surpluses are a secondary factor.

And no, I'd very much guess that the rest of the world will very politely tell us and the UN to fuck off until everything's gone completely to shit. Not that it's not worthwhile for us to do these things, but I don't think that the US completely greenificating it's self would push back the clock all that much.

C) Yeah, that's bad. However, that's clearly within what should be regulated by our own system without another iota of effort to environmental causes. That's a problem with agency capture mostly, I'd say, a pretty tangental issue.

I'd always take projections like the sinking of Florida with a grain of salt. Yeah, it's perfectly possible, but how much can we affect it? Moreover, is it worth tanking the US's remaining economic and therefore overall power on it? Is it worth dropping another one percent of people below the poverty line? Not being as competitive? Reducing people's freedoms?

And no, I don't believe your worse case scenario. We can always get better at using the resources we've got, and in any case, if stuff comes down to shooting, I'm confident in the United States remaining strong (and getting stronger, in fact) as a psuedo-nation-state.

I mean, understand that the bulk of this is devil advocating on my part, but these are certainly good points to be made against willy-nilly environmentalism.
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jester

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9248 on: November 12, 2012, 12:53:24 am »

If the US was dumb enough to bring it to a world war over energy, it would come down to nukes, strength wont mean diddly squat, you will all just be glass, lotta the rest of the world probably, but that isnt really going to make anybody feel better.  As for taking the nonrenewables now, I think iraq is proving how un economical trying to hold the worlds energy hotspots would be. 
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Bohandas

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9249 on: November 12, 2012, 12:55:16 am »

B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower.

What about China?
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9250 on: November 12, 2012, 12:56:10 am »

http://www.examiner.com/article/15-states-including-texas-have-filed-a-petition-to-secede-from-the-united-states-1

15 states petition the obama administration to allow them to peacefully secede from the union in the wake of the reelection of a Obama.

Yea. That is actually happening.

Strife:

A square of solar thermal plants 100 miles on a side in the southwest desert could produce enough energy to meet all our industrial, electrical and transportation needs*. Photovoltaic isn't taken seriously as a bulk power production system by anyone who has researched it, solar thermal is the way to go. It is more efficient, it requires no research, it requires no rare materials, it can produce power 24 hours a day without needing chemical batteries.

*Aircraft transport will require research in the generation of synthetic fossil fuels.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9251 on: November 12, 2012, 12:58:35 am »

http://www.examiner.com/article/15-states-including-texas-have-filed-a-petition-to-secede-from-the-united-states-1

15 states petition the obama administration to allow them to peacefully secede from the union in the wake of the reelection of a Obama.

Yea. That is actually happening.

Strife:

A square of solar thermal plants 100 miles on a side in the southwest desert could produce enough energy to meet all our industrial, electrical and transportation needs*. Photovoltaic isn't taken seriously as a bulk power production system by anyone who has researched it, solar thermal is the way to go. It is more efficient, it requires no research, it requires no rare materials, it can produce power 24 hours a day without needing chemical batteries.

*Aircraft transport will require research in the generation of synthetic fossil fuels.

You know, I'm not sure we shouldn't let them secede. Consider: the remaining United States will get rid of its crazies, and the seceding states will soon learn that they've basically been living on transfer payments from blue states via Uncle Sam. Might create a bit more levelheadedness all around.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9252 on: November 12, 2012, 01:04:18 am »

I would have to flee.  My state is one of those with a petition to secede.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9253 on: November 12, 2012, 01:04:56 am »

A) On a large scale, I would certainly stand behind the claim that solar is not a large scale solution. I mean, even assuming massive gains in solar efficiency, life-span of panels, price, ect. it's gonna be a long, hard fought argument to convince me that the amount of land and management it'd take would be worth it. Now, nuclear, geothermal, and a nice, healthy chunk of coal gasification, that's a whole
'nother ball game.
Solar is more than PV, Strife. PV wouldn't be good for heavy industry, but there are other types of solar power. PV is excellent for residential power, however. There is also the added bonus that it gives us a robust and decentralized power grid that cannot be attacked effectively, unlike centralized powerplants.

Geothermal is the real fools errand, I'm afraid. There are few locations in which we can implement it and geothermal vents have not proven to be as renewable as previously thought. Geothermal is going to have to be shelved until we can tap the mantel.

Coal has currently unacceptable environmental consequences. Improvements such as CCS and location restrictions are needed, unfortunately the industry fights hard against them and has plenty of money to bribe the legislature.

Nuclear is....okay. Still way more fickle and dangerous than renewables, and also has the centralization problem. I won't state active opposition, but we have better options available to us.
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B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower. Who knows how long that'll lost?

We can't expend them without serious consequences. Fossil fuels are a Faustian bargain, Strife. A double-edged sword, a treacherous ally, whatever. Renewables, as the name suggests, last. We are only better off with fossil fuels in the extreme short term. Everything else goes to the renewables.
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And no, I'd very much guess that the rest of the world will very politely tell us and the UN to fuck off until everything's gone completely to shit. Not that it's not worthwhile for us to do these things, but I don't think that the US completely greenificating it's self would push back the clock all that much.
The US, EU, and PRC are responsible for the vast majority of C02 emissions. We don't need to worry overmuch about African dictatorships adopting green energy. The three most important areas for C02 reduction are luckily also the ones that understand the need for it. Say what you will about the PRC, their leadership isn't stupid. They'll exploit while they can grow from it, but that age is quickly coming to and end.
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C) Yeah, that's bad. However, that's clearly within what should be regulated by our own system without another iota of effort to environmental causes. That's a problem with agency capture mostly, I'd say, a pretty tangental issue.
It is not a tangental issue. The same forces hindering environmental protection are the same ones that throw their money at Congress to be able to do this sort of stuff.
Quote
I'd always take projections like the sinking of Florida with a grain of salt. Yeah, it's perfectly possible, but how much can we affect it?
Consider:
Point A. Florida is not underwater.

Point B. Florida is going to be underwater due to sea rise.

Point C. Sea rise is due to our C02 emissions.

Therefore: We can prevent Florida from being underwater by lessening C02 emissions.
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Moreover, is it worth tanking the US's remaining economic and therefore overall power on it?
If we do this we might lose some power. If we don't do this we will lose our power. Societal collapse does not a strong nation make.
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Is it worth dropping another one percent of people below the poverty line?
This is not why people are impoverished, but not acting will lead to more impoverished people as our civilization stops functioning.
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Not being as competitive?
Competitiveness is a result of economic prosperity, which we will not have if we can't feed our people or protect them from storms and flooding.
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Reducing people's freedoms?
What are you even talking about?
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And no, I don't believe your worse case scenario. We can always get better at using the resources we've got, and in any case, if stuff comes down to shooting, I'm confident in the United States remaining strong (and getting stronger, in fact) as a psuedo-nation-state.
Oh, well then, by all means, I'm glad you've got it figured out that we can just magic up more resources and institute martial law when things go to shit. Man, that is so much better than just keeping this all from happening in the first place.
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Strife26

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9254 on: November 12, 2012, 01:08:22 am »

B) Heck, if we want to be most economical, I'd argue that we're better off taking all those juicy non-renewable resources now while we're still comfortably the world's sole hyperpower.

What about China?

Old equipment mostly, trying to get newer stuff as fast as they can, generally without the doctrine to employ it properly. Giant army that hasn't fought a real war since the bamboo curtain fell down, complete disparity in air and sea. I mean, we're talking the hypothetical, totally not what I'd say is moral, but the US would totally kick China's ass back and forth in any kind of traditional war.



Actual quote from the article
"These citizen generated petitions were filed just days after the 2012 presidential election."

Sorry, but the whitehouse.gov open petition drive isn't exactly real information. I mean, I'm pretty sure that there's at least a couple of "The US needs to stop believing the Zionist World Illuminati conspiracy that the Holocaust happened" on there, if they haven't haven't gotten cleared out.

Now, if Texas elected a governor running on a "seriously, we need to secede right the hell now" platform, and I got my happy ass kicked off of Ft. Hood because the State was ejecting federal personal and taking all the materiel, then I'd raise an eyebrow.


Gah, ninjas. Gimee a second to respond as I keep digging myself deeper into my own advocating here.
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