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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 770234 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9075 on: November 08, 2012, 04:12:51 pm »

I'd have to differ on the malinvestment point. Prior to WWII, the United States was an agrarian second-tier power with a few manufacturing hubs, notably Pittsburgh.

Detroit was already big, too, making 2 million cars a year before the war, and was geared to produce useful things to ordinary people. Tanks are cool, but ordinary people don't want them. I'm not sure how much of the Sherman assembly line was able to be repurposed to make useful products after the war. There's a certain amount of broken window fallacy going into an assumption that the war years were a boom time. There were rations for everything. 

Of course there were. Rationing doesn't mean that the economy isn't doing well, it just means that it hasn't been geared for civilian production (which was a major problem with the USSR for example). War useally results in an overstimulation of the economy, which if managed badly can result in an economical implosion. Also reason for rations was that from the early years of the war, the US was practically supplying the entire European continent on it's own.

Hell, before the world wars Europe used to control more than 75% of the globe.

Let's just admit that there are very, very few instances where a single policy or event is responsible for swinging an entire economic cycle, shall we?
Lol. Fine, you got me.

Nothing is with just a single cause (except maybe the universe, but then only maybe). If you're looking back far enough you'll probably find a butterfly somewhere down the chain of events.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9076 on: November 08, 2012, 04:33:18 pm »

Comparing the Great Depression with the late 70s-early 80s recession is a bit odd, since they were of completely different natures altogether.

The Great Depression was characterized by (mostly) deflation alongside a massive economic downturn, whereas the 70s recession was characterized by stagflation and something of a collapse in the dominant economic views of the past thirty years. The roots of both had more to do with monetary policy and government spending than taxes, really.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9077 on: November 08, 2012, 04:56:58 pm »

FDR's New Deal plan was so bad it caused the economy to crash years before it was even thought up.  You see the same thing with some gun legislation
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9078 on: November 08, 2012, 05:04:30 pm »

Waitwaitwait - the New Deal and other Keynesian policies actually helped the economy - the downturn came after deficit spending was reduced because it was thought that the economy woud recover on its own!
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alexandertnt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9079 on: November 08, 2012, 08:22:31 pm »

Relatively rushed response: May have missed something/misinterpreted something

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The education system makes them more liberal, because the professors are overwhelmingly liberal. You get taught what to think.

Yay, conspiracy theories. Those damn professors.

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I'd say liberal peer groups form during and after the education, because that's where a lot of conservatives are converted by peer and authority pressure alike. Have you ever had to write a conservative-sounding paper because you knew your teacher was a fire-breathing ideologue who'd mark down a reasoned liberal-sounding paper? Conservatives have this all the time. I had two professor where I just didn't feel comfortable writing my own opinions, so I had to think like a liberal. Some bend and snap back into place, some bend and never snap back, and some break and get the bad mark. That's how it goes.

Do you have any evidence to say that self-identified conservatives are converted to liberalism (like they are religions or something)? How did you know they would mark it down? You are making the assumption that writing a "conservative" paper would definetely get the bad mark (for being conservative), without pondering the other reasons for why that might happen (apparently a conservative paper WILL get an unfair mark)? If they did, perhaps it was for other reasons (such as containing massive ammounts of fallacies that most of your arguments seem to be composed of)? You make the assumption that your conservative-sounding paper would be (despite not even having come into existance) reasoned.

If they are "converted" (as you misleadingly put it), perhaps it's because education makes them see the world clearer or some such? Perhaps they legitimetely changed the way they think, rather than it being a conspiracy theory to liberalise everyone. Have you thought that perhaps if what you claim to be happening is true, it is not due to evil professor's and their pressure, but some other cause?

Are professors liberal "fire-breathing idealogue's"? Would this not be painting the wrong impression of them, since im sure any biologist would be fully aware they are incapable of breathing fire. This languages demonises your opponents, it is a straw man.

"Some bend and snap back into place" Because conservatism is "in place" (No explanation given as to why). All you are showing is a clear emotional bias for conservatism, still without backing it up. You are assuming it is correct.

Your argument is nothing but Professor Values, it sounds like something straight off Conservapedia.

Anyway, long live education. It helps you see and understand the world for what it is. Understanding how it works, and furthermore being able to apply this knowledge in a meaningful way. Without it, we would be limited to seeing the world throught the foggy glasses of idealology. Accepting what is what without being able to think about it.

Without reasonable education, people would only have enough knowledge to labour towards ipads/whatever, never knowing anymore than what they need. The thought of this world makes me very sad.



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History is not liberal

Of course not. It is not conservative either. Both of these concepts as they are now known are relatively modern idea's. Most of history was either in anarchy, or totalitarianism. The definitions for liberal and conservative change all the time. If you look at the history through a modern interpetation of these concepts, you will get a warped view of history.

Besides, considering the average life span, the poor living/working conditions of the past...

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There's a lot of lessons that aren't fit to be digested in the appropriately liberal frame of mind, and they worry that young initiates might grow confused, so they help you by conveniently presenting only the facts that fit.

Argh, more unfounded conspiracy's. Proof. Or is it just so?

"digested in the appropriately liberal frame of mind" Again, straw man. All "liberal" minds (please define) cannot digest the same information? Are all liberals think-alikes? If conservatism is the oppisite of liberalism does this make conservatism think-alikes too (could they digest what the liberal minds could not, and reject what they could?)

It seems like the only way you can justify having an opposing view-point to these professors is to claim conspiracy. What you have said on the subject of professors, and the reasoning as to why they have opposing view points seems to be an inverse Argumentum ad verecundiam.

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Read it again. The crash in 1937 that lead to a double-dip was immediately preceeded by tax raises.

Coorelation does not necessarily equal causation. Yet you insist on acting as if it does. Why? Please back up your point with something that would actually be an argument in your favour, this is not.

Let me give you some examples:


This one in particular would seem to support doing something to reduce inequality (for example taxing the rich):


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To argue that the 1981 tax cuts were responsible for recession afterward, you'd have to find a different reason why there was a recession immediately before in 1980, too. Probably a combination of bad factors, like gas prices...

And this! You are now suddenly understanding that coorelation does not imply causation, only for an opposing argument, not for your own though. Dare I say this is a good show of bias, particularly Confirmation bias?



As for WWII, most other countries had their industly leveled (considering the big producer was Britian). So America did not have much problem selling machinery considering they were basically the only ones that could produce it in any meaningful quantity. It was pretty much an American monopoly.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9080 on: November 08, 2012, 08:26:10 pm »

FDR's New Deal plan was so bad it caused the economy to crash years before it was even thought up.  You see the same thing with some gun legislation

I suppose Hoover's free market, low spending policy was the cause then. After all, we all know Hoover promptly cut taxes, cut spending, and waited for the recession to end (as was the case in several significantly shortly recessions previously).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh wait, Hoover engaged in the biggest stimulus spending of any United States President ever, created many of the programs that FDR used to fuel the New Deal, and had jack all to show for it.

Waitwaitwait - the New Deal and other Keynesian policies actually helped the economy - the downturn came after deficit spending was reduced because it was thought that the economy woud recover on its own!

The New Deal did a hell of a job if you consider unemployment above 15% to be a successful recovery, not to mention that despite the "successful New Deal", the US was still mired in depression when basically the rest of the world had recovered.

The 1937 "mini-depression" was hardly related to deficit spending reductions, not in the least because government outlays actually increased compared to previous years, the deficit just shrank due to an increase of revenues from taxes. It had more to do with labour relations changes brought on by the Wagner Act, the NLRA, etc.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9081 on: November 08, 2012, 08:40:11 pm »

Oh wait, Hoover engaged in the biggest stimulus spending of any United States President ever, created many of the programs that FDR used to fuel the New Deal, and had jack all to show for it.
Ok, I'll amend my previous statement.

Hoover's stimulus plan was so bad it caused the economy to crash a year before he started doing it.
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misko27

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9082 on: November 08, 2012, 09:04:33 pm »

Quote from: Wikipedia
The Great Depression did not strongly affect Japan. The Japanese economy shrank by 8% during 1929–31. Japan's Finance Minister Takahashi Korekiyo was the first to implement what have come to be identified as Keynesian economic policies: first, by large fiscal stimulus involving deficit spending; and second, by devaluing the currency. Takahashi used the Bank of Japan to sterilize the deficit spending and minimize resulting inflationary pressures. Econometric studies have identified the fiscal stimulus as especially effective.[67]
 
The devaluation of the currency had an immediate effect. Japanese textiles began to displace British textiles in export markets. The deficit spending proved to be most profound. The deficit spending went into the purchase of munitions for the armed forces. By 1933, Japan was already out of the depression. By 1934, Takahashi realized that the economy was in danger of overheating, and to avoid inflation, moved to reduce the deficit spending that went towards armaments and munitions.
Sounds effective to me.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9083 on: November 08, 2012, 09:07:07 pm »

Wasn't their annexing of Chinese land also partially responsible?
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Shadowlord

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9084 on: November 08, 2012, 09:08:22 pm »

Here, just go look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

There are all kinds of theories!
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misko27

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9085 on: November 08, 2012, 09:08:58 pm »

Wasn't their annexing of Chinese land also partially responsible?
Comes later. Teh Civilian Leader responsible was assasinated in 1934. Plenty of time.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9086 on: November 08, 2012, 09:12:13 pm »

Wasn't their annexing of Chinese land also partially responsible?
Comes later. Teh Civilian Leader responsible was assasinated in 1934. Plenty of time.
And the Japanese didn't pacify Manchuria until 1941 or something like that. So it definitively helped with Japan's recovery but wasn't primarily responsible for it.
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Korbac

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #9089 on: November 08, 2012, 09:24:18 pm »

I really do love Rush. Not because of his opinions of course, since we disagree on almost anything, but I love listening to him in a "morbid fascination with the utterly insane" way.
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