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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 768706 times)

Max White

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8805 on: November 07, 2012, 11:02:10 am »

Individuals do not operate in a vacuum. If Mr Lazy McMoneybags decides that the extra effort spent swindling his indentured servants isn't worthwhile, there will always be another Mr Lazy McMoneybags the 2nd esquire willing to exploit his slaves in order to fill the market niche left by the inaction of the first Lazy McMoneybags.

In the real world, capital does not create wealth, labor creates wealth, and the leaching class are the exploitative fucks who have rigged the system to their advantage. Taxing those fucks more does nothing to change the productive capacity of the workforce, and when those taxes are reinvested in the market through government jobs and assistance to people barely making it, the productive capacity of that labor actually does increase because the number of people capable of participating in the market as both laborers and consumers is increased.
So in apple logic?
Mr. McAppleseed is getting such a profit from Jimmy and Freddy that if the tax rate goes up for his bracket, he is still making a pretty good income, and doing no work at all. He owns the fucking orchid! He never has to put in a single hours work, and even if the tac rate goes to 90 apples per hundred, it is worth it, if he can find somebody who will work cheap enough.

Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8806 on: November 07, 2012, 11:02:57 am »

In the real world, capital does not create wealth, labor creates wealth, and the leaching class are the exploitative fucks

Build a chair with your labour and no capital. You can't do it.

You have no capital. A hammer and nails are capital. A saw is capital. You labor produces nothing without the right capital expenses. See?

Now let's say I make a machine that makes chairs... Wow, cool, a capital investment that creates wealth without labor!
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PTTG??

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8807 on: November 07, 2012, 11:05:50 am »

Your machine is hypothetical, however, as I can think of no machine yet devised that doesn't need some human labor- an operator, or at least someone to dump raw materials in. Your chair machine would need to collect trees, collect fuel, and maintain itself.

So in practical terms, both labor and capital are essential. I would extend this to say that more capital investment requires less labor, and more labor can compensate for less capital.
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Jerick

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8808 on: November 07, 2012, 11:08:27 am »

Quote
I make a machine
*cough*labour*cough*
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Max White

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8809 on: November 07, 2012, 11:11:42 am »

Now I know what you guys are all thinking, if Jimmy and Freddy are getting ripped off for their work, why don't they be their own boss and start their own apple business? Well because they can't afford to buy their own farm!
In an ideal, magical world, farms would be given out for free, thus anybody could picks apples, and they would still have value because of the man hours put in picking them. If the value of the apple got too high for consumers, more people would become apple pickers and competition would rise, leading to a drop in prices. If they dropped too low, the opposite effect, meaning a nice self regulated appleconomy.

Saddly, this wouldn't work in the real world, because land is finite. We would run out of good farming land too quickly, thus we don't just give out land at all. This means that those with a monopoly on the farms that do exist tend to make all the money for no work.

Now if only there were resources that weren't finite... Like oh I don't know... Education. Then giving that out for free would be a real plus!

Jervill

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8810 on: November 07, 2012, 11:19:40 am »

Is it bad that now the election's over, I'm looking forward to PVI calculation time? :P
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8811 on: November 07, 2012, 11:20:22 am »

My biggest disappointment is that jackasses like UnSkewedPolls.com and Dick Morris aren't showing up this morning to take their lumps. Joe Scarborough hasn't tweeted since about midnight. Maybe the Republican Kool-Aid had a Jonestown kick to it...
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Reelya

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8812 on: November 07, 2012, 11:23:47 am »

The reality benders don't know how it works. Putting out fake polls to say your guys are a "dead certainty" to win doesn't encourage your voters to get out the vote.

But i guess they're in a hard place. If they say an Obama victory is looming, they might encourage more of their guys to vote, but they're also legitimizing that Obama is popular.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 11:25:50 am by Reelya »
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8813 on: November 07, 2012, 11:24:03 am »

Is it bad that now the election's over, I'm looking forward to PVI calculation time? :P
PVI?
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pisskop

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8814 on: November 07, 2012, 11:24:33 am »

I called every winner in my state, as well as the president.  Not that I voted for them all, but I publicly called them at one point yesterday afternoon.
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Jervill

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8815 on: November 07, 2012, 11:32:26 am »

Is it bad that now the election's over, I'm looking forward to PVI calculation time? :P
PVI?

Cook PVI which measures how much a state is either more D-leaning or R-leaning than the country as a whole based on the previous two presidential elections.  Although I'm more interested in basing county or house district results, getting the PVI for each state is a good starting point.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8816 on: November 07, 2012, 11:44:40 am »

I'm just now looking at the state results for North Carolina. Meh...could have been worse. Governor's House changed to (R), but we've known that was coming for some time. The Dems ran an utterly uninspiring conservative DINO. I actually voted Libertarian as a protest.

My Democratic rep won his umpteenth term handily.

And two of the Republicans that came out of the fiasco that was the Wake County school board (the ones that made national news by basically looking to re-segregate school based on neighborhood) got shot down in their bids for higher office.  Sadly though, the state legislature basically stayed status quo, which is to say in the hands of wack-ass Tea Party Republicans -- the same ones who legislated that the Coastal Resources commission must ignore scientific sea level rise projections. Looks like about half the races were unopposed. That's either two lazy-ass political parties, or a sign of some serious damn gerrymandering.

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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Bohandas

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #8817 on: November 07, 2012, 11:45:50 am »

Quote
When a guy accuses me of being a parasite in a country that I don't live in, I should just nod and pretend I live in America? I've got an IP Address and mods have tracert so do it. How insane that you've made my location into a big deal.

I'm not the one who used it what, 3-4 times without anyone asking? You act as if you're the only one who knows anything about the world, because, why, you lives in the chinas and is practically the CEO of the chinas! Hurp-dee-doo! Strawman strawman, indignance, derision!

Of course, the irony of living in one of the last remaining communist states (if you actually do, don't really care either way) and saying that the USA should fix its problems by dragging its bloated, heaving carcass further to the right and replicating nothing of the incredible economic success of said communist country is a brilliant arguing position.

You don't understand much about China, bud. China has no social welfare model to speak of. If you're poor, the government gives you just enough to buy rice for a month. About 50 yuan for a month, and a good professional makes 6000-12000 a month. So yeah, once you know China, it is a good point that China has avoided the trap that America and Europe are in right now. But if you don't know China, but want to appear undeservingly derisive of people that do know more than you, then you snark and sneer without facts

You need yo wake up and stop unquestioningly believing the propaganda that your government feeds you. If you are in china it surprises me that you even got onto this site, what with the way your government proactively blocks people from viewing anything that even begins to question their positions (BTW, watch your back)
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8818 on: November 07, 2012, 11:46:28 am »

So here's the question: what now?

Well, in the short term, we have the fiscal cliff to deal with. Here's the problem with it: it is no coincidence that it is as far from an election as possible. Voters will remember the consequences of whatever deal is brokered or not when they go to the polls in 2014, but they likely won't remember who made the final stretch across the aisle to make that deal. That may be bad news for the Democrats, because they might make some concessions that they would rather not make, get a deal passed at the bottom of the ninth, and then lose to Republicans in the midterm because voters thought that a compromise in the House was the result of the Republicans running it. But that's a hell of a lot better than not making a decision; going over the edge of the cliff I don't even want to think about.

But more importantly, we may actually see the Republicans compromise a little bit; they've won the battle in the House but lost the war. Recall that the past four years' obstructionism has been, in large part, a function of the McConnell plan: on the (quite reasonable; Romney did more for the Obama campaign through his ineptitude than any staffer ever did) assumption that a do-nothing black president in a bad economy couldn't get elected, we're going to do everything it takes to make Barack Obama a one-term president, and we're going to do that by not letting him get anything done. Now that's gone down the tubes: Obama has won, the Democrats have kept their control of the Senate (though not enough to prevent filibusters), and suddenly the raison d'être of the Republicans for the past two years is gone. Further attempts to be obstructionist and not get anything done will have no higher purpose than being obstructionist and not getting anything done, and in the face of a crisis an inability to compromise can only hurt. (Not that the Democrats aren't being bullheaded and immature, because they are. But not to the extent their colleagues have been.)

Indeed, I have some hope that we might get something done this term. Recall that John Boehner had a budget deal with Obama all packed up and ready to go before Eric Cantor took him aside and told him no, this is not acceptable. With Obama not facing reelection, that could change. Boehner, we forget, is still an old-school Republican; unlike certain of his colleagues, he does understand that when you gotta cut a deal, you cut a deal. And I'd gain a lot of respect for the man if, when it comes time to get something done, he basically stands up and said "I am the head of this Congress and this party, and we are putting aside the bickering for a few minutes to get this passed for the sake of the country."

What about 2016? Well, on the Republican side, forget the current batch. Mittens will probably go back to a fulfilling life as a member of the idle rich. Newt Gingrich will be too old to run and be taken even less seriously than he was this go-round. Rick Santorum will be perceived as even more laughably bigoted in four years' time, as more states legalize gay marriage and public opposition to it weakens even more. He could make an appearance, of course- lord knows everyone thought he was done for four or five years ago- and it's not inconceivable that he might win the primary, as he almost did this year (and what fun that would have been, though less thrilling), but his opponent would win by a landslide in the general. Paul the elder may have passed on to the great gold mine in the sky.

So who does that leave? From this season: Rick Perry, Herman Cain, Jon Huntsman, and Tim Pawlenty. Perry will have to look extra-competent as governor, and in the general he would likely suffer from the same problems as Santorum. Herman Cain would be hilarious but, alas, unlikely. As for Huntsman- I like Huntsman a lot and may well be inclined to vote for him if he won the primary, but I don't think he would win it. Which is sad, because he's exactly the sort of guy the Republicans need to stave off their demographic decline. Pawlenty could be resurrected, but it seems very unlikely. Oh, and there's also Paul Ryan. Disturbingly, I think he might win the primary if he ran; fortunately, however, he'd never win in the general.

But don't count on all these showing. Paul probably will and Perry is plausible. Luckily for the Republicans, not being in power gives you a lot of time to develop fresh faces.

However, in the end I think they'd probably lose if they put in someone conventional. They are losing their base, they can't get Hispanics (Rubio would be a very, very canny choice; but he will only be a temporary fix unless the Republicans start changing their stances on immigration and social services), and there's something else that will happen between now and 2016, too: Obamacare will go into effect with full force in 2014, and people will see that it is not, in fact, the end times.

The Republicans are going to come away from this and tell their constituents that they weren't conservative enough- because being insane has let them keep the House. But they're fools if they think it'll win them the Presidency from here on out. And here is the sad truth: they are fools. Romney might have moved more to the center, picked Christie or Rubio or someone else for veep pick, and be celebrating victory right now. But instead, he caved to the party groupthink and lost for it. And, unfortunately for his successors, his partymates are taking away exactly the wrong conclusion from it.

What about the Democrats? Biden is a possibility, of course, and if Obama comes out the other end as a popular, likable president who got some shit done he might be able to ride that wave to the Presidency, especially if the Republicans can't get their act together and make a bad nomination choice. Hillary might well make an appearance; but by that time she may be perceived as too old, at least for a woman. (Another presidential sex scandal with Bill would be hilarious). About the only people I can think of at the moment are Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, both of Virginia. Kaine would actually be a great choice, I think; like Biden, he's a Catholic Democrat (used to be a missionary, actually) who would make inroads in the religious vote, but like Biden is pro-choice in the public view. And there might be other people, you never know.

It'll be interesting!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 11:48:57 am by dhokarena56 »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #8819 on: November 07, 2012, 11:53:32 am »

http://www.wmctv.com/story/20025451/riots-brew-on-ole-miss-campus

There are "riots" protesting the Obama victory in Mississippi. Maybe.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.
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