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[Nadaka]

The coal industry does pump more radioactive waste into the air every year than has been released in the history of the nuclear energy industry.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Coal can improve, though. The next big thing is Cap and Trade-fueled C02 Capture and Sequestration. Ever wonder why acid rain stopped being an issue? It's because we did the exact same thing to sulfur emissions from coal. No more sulfur in the atmosphere, no more sulfuric acid in the rain.

With CCS we'll massively cut emissions over the course of only a few years. Not a miracle solution, but a massive improvement all the same. Coal won't go away overnight, but this will make it much more bearable.

There's also currently a legal mandate to replace land displaced from coal mining and make it at least livable for plant life. It isn't the same as it was pre-mining, but its better than what they used to do, which was blow up the mountain and leave it like that afterwards.

[mainiac]

Clean coal is always just a few years away.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There's no such thing as clean coal. There is, however, Sulfur-less C02-less coal. And it isn't always "just a few years away", removing C02 from coal emissions has only been a serious goal for the past five years or so. We are making progress. There are even beta sites for this now. Obama could realistically sign a Cap and Trade law for C02 in coal during his second term baring some major setback with the programs researching this.

[GoombaGeek]

Clean coal is always just a few years away.

Oh, clean coal. We get that in Alberta, too.

[Nadaka]

There's no such thing as clean coal. There is, however, Sulfur-less C02-less coal. And it isn't always "just a few years away", removing C02 from coal emissions has only been a serious goal for the past five years or so. We are making progress. There are even beta sites for this now. Obama could realistically sign a Cap and Trade law for C02 in coal during his second term baring some major setback with the programs researching this.

Agreed. There is no such thing as clean coal. Removing sulfur from coal smoke results in sulfur rich sludge, a toxic waste that has to be stored in retaining ponds.  Carbon sequestration involves pumping high pressure co2 into the ground, often into oil or gas reservoirs or the porous material of the water table. This pressure can cause fractures, contaminated ground water, localized earth quakes, sinkholes and the risk of sudden outgassing events. 

Do you know what happens when there is a sudden CO2 outgassing event in a populated area?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

Everything dies.

And then, after all that, carbon sequestering coal power is actually more expensive that conventional nuclear power.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We've actually got an alternate solution to the sequestering, which is using genetically modified algae and bacteria to do what plants do normally and convert the C02 into O2, but until we can start doing that on the large scale sequestering is convenient and keeps the C02 out of the atmosphere. Lake Nyos is a bad sign, but its a natural disaster. With proper precautions we can sequester safely enough.

This isn't meant as a solution, it's meant as mitigation so we have more time to get the solution. If we keep the C02 out of the atmosphere at least for a time it will be not causing us issues.

[Nadaka]

We've actually got an alternate solution to the sequestering, which is using genetically modified algae and bacteria to do what plants do normally and convert the C02 into O2, but until we can start doing that on the large scale sequestering is convenient and keeps the C02 out of the atmosphere. Lake Nyos is a bad sign, but its a natural disaster. With proper precautions we can sequester safely enough.

This isn't meant as a solution, it's meant as mitigation so we have more time to get the solution. If we keep the CO2 out of the atmosphere at least for a time it will be not causing us issues.

You can not reliably use an uninspectable unit of natural rock as pressure vessel. Natural rock has natural fractures, weak points, varying degrees of permeability, permissibility and unaccountable natural stresses from tidal effects, volcanism, earthquakes, etc. There is no safe way to store trillions of cubic meters of CO2 underground at high pressure. Nyos was a natural disaster, and underground high pressure carbon sequestration is exactly how one would replicate it.

We have already seen issues with ground water contamination resulting from hydraulic fraking used harvest natural gas, and the volumes and pressures involved with CO2 sequestration will be larger.

[Descan]

Would we be able to compress the carbon in CO2 emissions into bricks?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We can test the pressure by seeing if it decreases once filled above normal levels. You don't even have to use C02 for the testing if you want to be additionally safe.

Don't think I don't recognize that this is dangerous no matter how we do it, because I do, but I think we have to accept that risk like we accept the risk that nuclear plants will meltdown.

If there's anything I've learned in studying the energy/climate crisis it is that we need more time than we actually have left. This will give us some time, and I think that is worth the risk.

We don't just have to put the C02 down there and forget about it either, as I mentioned before we have ways of converting it to O2, after which it can be safely released into the atmosphere. A point will come where the conversion can just be done in-plant, at which point sequestration is no longer necessary.

[Frumple]

So the presidential round two seems to be going on. Anything interesting, yet?

[Leafsnail]

Obama looks a lot more confident tonight while Romney is starting to waver, based on my inexpert analysis.

[Nadaka]

 starting to watch neow. talking energy actaully. btw, i am predrunk so i dont need a debate drinking game. that may not be the greatest idea.

[mainiac]

Romney is acting like a petulant child.  He is openly arguing with the moderator when she tells him to STFU.  He seems like entitled to the last word.

Obama had a great line about gas prices.  Romney will bring down gas prices by bringing a double dip recession.

[SealyStar]

I love how every comment on the debates on the whole internet is about how close they're stepping to each other.