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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 768300 times)

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6720 on: October 16, 2012, 11:36:21 am »

Partisan? I am a Ranseur, maybe a Bec-de-corbin.
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Reelya

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6721 on: October 16, 2012, 11:43:57 am »

Solar thermal. Not photovoltaic. PV is for small scale infrastructure because it consumes exotic materials and has a finicky production process for anything but the lowest levels of wh per area. Solar thermal plants are made of glass, steel, aluminum and concrete. They are also more efficient by area. Solar thermal can produce ~909 GWh per square mile per year.

So to match your number of 3,700,000 Gwh, you would need only ~4070 square miles. Or a square 63.8 miles wide.

Coal in the USA actually makes up 2,133,000 GWh of capacity, so to replace just coal alone it'd be quite a bit less than that, 2346.3 square miles, which works out at 46 square miles per state. So a 7x7 mile square in each state.

Also, those criticisms about maintenance costs and deterioration of photo-voltaic cells don't take into account coal's constant fuel requirements (mostly imported, worsening the US balance of trade) and the fact that coal plants do in fact have a planned lifetime, many were only designed to run 25 years, and require significant refurbishment to extend their lifetime.

http://www.rmi.org/RFGraph-age_capacity_operating_US_coal_gas_generators

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There are currently 308 GW of coal-fired capacity and 185 GW of gas-fired capacity in operation in the United States. Assuming normal operating lives, 95% of the coal capacity and 99% of the gas capacity will be retired by 2050. These retirements must be replaced with new capacity—be it coal, gas, or otherwise.
Saying solar is no good because it'll have to be replaced in 35 years thus makes little sense.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 11:46:24 am by Reelya »
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6722 on: October 16, 2012, 11:54:42 am »

Easiest method would probably be to start up some really tempting college programs(I'm thinking liberal arts just off the top of my head) in these states with few/no out of state penalties and cheap tuition. Draw in tons of out of state students who would stay there for 2-4 years. Run a "<insert state> needs your vote!" campaign on campus to get them to register/switch registration.
And now when the University of Wyoming gets a $50 million grant to support a Nude Co-Ed Tantric Bungee Jumping program, we'll know where they got the idea.  ;D

Because Wyoming and Alaska are probably the only two red states with a population low enough that increased college enrollment woud make a dent.

Long-term, just increasing job growth in high-tech industries is a good recipe for "blueing" your state, as it both brings in more educated (and typically more liberal) workers, but also because it typically involves a fair number of transfers from established high-tech areas in blue states like California and New York.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6723 on: October 16, 2012, 11:57:45 am »

There's a university in Wyoming? There's anything in Wyoming?
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sluissa

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6724 on: October 16, 2012, 12:03:05 pm »

I thought about high tech stuff... but even high tech seems to be more mixed politically and it'd be hard to say if a college with a huge majority of left leaning students would outweigh a high tech industry with only a slight or moderate majority.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6725 on: October 16, 2012, 12:07:00 pm »

There's a university in Wyoming? There's anything in Wyoming?
Enrollment: 13,992, in Laramie. They're a I-A school, Mountain West conference.

Plus a dozen or so community colleges and The Frontier School of the Bible. Offering degrees in Bibleology, Bible Engineering, and Advanced Bibliconometrics.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6726 on: October 16, 2012, 12:13:09 pm »

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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6727 on: October 16, 2012, 12:15:09 pm »

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Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Dutchling

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Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6729 on: October 16, 2012, 12:39:17 pm »

Quote
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics applies.

"The entropy of a closed system will always increase"?

Yeah, entropy is a little difficult a term to understand, but that statement can be rephrased many ways in more down-to-earth language. One way is "You can never get out of a process as much as you put into it." It's the reason that perpetual motion devices always fail. Entropy is a measure of disorder, such as energy losses in thermodynamic conversions. Bake a cake. The dough starts out neatly packaged.  When you mix it, there'll be dough left over in the mixing bowl that doesn't get poured into your baking pan. You don't get as much cake as you paid for. You never can. Another example. It's very orderly to have all the electrons amassed on the negative pole of a battery, but leave that battery in your drawer for two years, and a significant amount will have leaked over internally. The battery will be dead without ever being used. Nothing can be 100% efficient. Everything is slowly wasting away.

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Quote
Coal plants can generate an average of 31% of theoretical potential energy, with a practical high of 45% that depends more on input coal quality rather than actual infrastructure itself. Legislation can't change the quality of coal that is available.
Hence why we have to start moving away from coal, among other reasons.

Comparable efficiency in natural gas, at about 45% efficiency for decades, but the key point is that you can't get 100% of the theoretical energy from any source. Solar has a possible ceiling of 60% efficiency called the Shockley–Queisser limit, and it's prohibitively costly to even approach that limit. All forms of electricity generation meet practical limits far below theoretical maxima.

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Quote
In Sci-fi fantasyland, we would have lossless superconductors, of course, but that isn't going to happen.
developing room-temperature superconductors, which are not lossless but are as close to lossless as is permitted by reality. Investing in researching and developing these is how we're going to get them, and is a worthwhile use of government money.

We could also put 500k tons of lead in Fort Knox and invest $1 trillion dollars into Philosopher Stone advances, claiming we'd profit by 28 times on the research outlay after we turn it all into gold. In the end, you have to target an achievable goal and have a scientist capable of discovering it. Government money has little effect on those things. That approach is called throwing money at a problem, and it's generally not effective. Room temperature superconductors are not readily achievable, if at all. I believe the best so far is 90 Kelvins or so, just 210 Kelvins short of what would be needed.

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Anyway, there are plenty of other things that can be done for efficiency. The average American ends up wasting a lot of money and energy on very small things that add up over time, like phantom draws and inefficient planned obsolescence appliances. Gradually raising standards so that industry has to sell efficient appliances that don't draw power when not being used will solve this on an individual level and lead to savings on a national level.

Probably the most fruitful area for energy savings, but realistically, you'd probably cut 10% off of electricity consumption and still have a huge demand. Big-ticket items like heating and air-conditioning systems have already plucked the low-hanging efficiency fruit. It simply takes a lot of energy to do what modern humans expect of their appliances. Leakage of appliance not in use happens, true. Yet much of this leakage stuff is simpy unavoidable due to limitations on human awareness, like leaving a phone recharger connected and leaking current that way. People are going to do this.

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that's 25,630 square miles of solar panels, or 23% of the land area in Nevada.
....and? The panels don't have to all be in Nevada. We can put them all over the place.

But that is the most efficient place to put solar panel. It's 1.6 times more efficient than New York. The moderate temperatures and predictable weather also minimize wear-and-tear and replacement rates. Decentralized solar generation runs into this trouble, in particular. If every house has a solar panel array, then who cleans the solar panels? For example, cold water sprayed onto a solar panel on a hot summer day can causing cracking. Solar energy is best generated in large farms where appropriate personnel can maintain it.

Quote
No one said energy renewablity would necessarily be easy, but we need it. We need it very badly. Once a collapse starts it will be difficult to pull out of it, so we need to start and ideally finish going renewable before that has a chance to happen.

We have about 100 years of recoverable shale products under America at current consumption, and China has 300 years. Solar will have to compete on a marketplace with other cheap sources of energy for another half century, perhaps. Slowly it will cut out a larger share of the energy pie, but largely due to market forces and slow development of better technology, which government grants can certainly support over the long-term but not rush immediately to fruition.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6730 on: October 16, 2012, 12:50:00 pm »

Putting all your eggs into one basket is not such a great idea. A mixed source renewable scheme is IMHO a more adequate solution until fusion gets its act together.

Here in the UK a mixture of Hydro and Wind with a backbone of Nuclear seems to be the way we are going for the short to medium term future. Solar isnt an option for our climate, but boy does wind offer us potential (we get about 60% of the wind in the EU passing over us), as does tidal and wave thanks to being an island. The proposed Severn Barrage (estimated to cost around £30bn) could provide most of our energy on its own, if it ever gets built. I am very suprised large swathes of the midwest havent already been turned over to super scale windfarms. Are there many viable hydro sites in the Rockies?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6731 on: October 16, 2012, 12:52:07 pm »

Our consumption of shale products is steadily growing, and shows no signs that it will stop growing. At current growth we will run out of all marketable fossil fuel variants around or before 2050, barring the collapse of human civilization before this point and assuming no developing nations grow in consumption. More realistically, we're looking at market failure around 2030.

There is an urgency here. We cannot pull this off at the last second, it has to happen now. If it doesn't you can say goodbye to our civilization and 7/8ths of humanity.
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Reelya

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6732 on: October 16, 2012, 12:54:03 pm »

Quote
The Shockley–Queisser limit only applies to cells with a single p-n junction; cells with multiple layers can outperform this limit. In the extreme, with an infinite number of layers, the corresponding limit is 86% using concentrated sunlight.[...]
It is important to note that the limit makes several fundamental assumptions; that the cell contains a single p-n junction, that the junction is tuned to visible light, and that any extra energy in the photons is lost. None of these assumptions is necessarily true, and a number of different approaches have been used to significantly surpass the basic limit.

Anyway, the % that a photovoltaic cell extracts from sunlight has nothing to do with whether solar is more or less cost-effective in the long run than coal. Estimates already take yield into account. Another difference is that you paid for that coal to be shipped around, you didn't pay for the sunlight.

Solar thermal isn't limited by that 60% anyway because it's based on a different technology where that limit isn't even relevant. Multiple layer photovoltaic cells also exceed 60%, so it's not some super-hard to achieve limit at all.

Solar energy hitting the Earth is unlimited for all practical human requirements. Now they have things like solar windows which can generate power very cheaply:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We really need data on new developments like these to see what the price / performance and lifespan are like. And there are at least 2 competing variants, which should drive market price down pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:13:35 pm by Reelya »
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10ebbor10

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6733 on: October 16, 2012, 12:57:11 pm »


Quote
Quote
Coal plants can generate an average of 31% of theoretical potential energy, with a practical high of 45% that depends more on input coal quality rather than actual infrastructure itself. Legislation can't change the quality of coal that is available.
Hence why we have to start moving away from coal, among other reasons.

Comparable efficiency in natural gas, at about 45% efficiency for decades, but the key point is that you can't get 100% of the theoretical energy from any source. Solar has a possible ceiling of 60% efficiency called the Shockley–Queisser limit, and it's prohibitively costly to even approach that limit. All forms of electricity generation meet practical limits far below theoretical maxima.Yeah, nuclear power plants are at 30-45% effeciency, and wind and solar at 20-30% with 40% being gained by prototype installations.



Quote
Quote
In Sci-fi fantasyland, we would have lossless superconductors, of course, but that isn't going to happen.
developing room-temperature superconductors, which are not lossless but are as close to lossless as is permitted by reality. Investing in researching and developing these is how we're going to get them, and is a worthwhile use of government money.

We could also put 500k tons of lead in Fort Knox and invest $1 trillion dollars into Philosopher Stone advances, claiming we'd profit by 28 times on the research outlay after we turn it all into gold. In the end, you have to target an achievable goal and have a scientist capable of discovering it. Government money has little effect on those things. That approach is called throwing money at a problem, and it's generally not effective. Room temperature superconductors are not readily achievable, if at all. I believe the best so far is 90 Kelvins or so, just 210 Kelvins short of what would be needed. Except that governement funded research got us that far. Most, if not all of the recent advances in superconducters are at least somewhat related to either the LHC, the Iter Fusion project or some of the other projects. Throwing money at a problem won't work. But the governement can use it's money to create projects that are to big for individual entrepreneurs, thereby arcelerating science, inventing new technologies and creating High tech jobs. Nobody is going to invest in superconductor research when they only become viable at room temperature, but these projects create a demand for subroom temperature conductors(any improvement is welcome) thereby promoting research.

Quote
Anyway, there are plenty of other things that can be done for efficiency. The average American ends up wasting a lot of money and energy on very small things that add up over time, like phantom draws and inefficient planned obsolescence appliances. Gradually raising standards so that industry has to sell efficient appliances that don't draw power when not being used will solve this on an individual level and lead to savings on a national level.

Probably the most fruitful area for energy savings, but realistically, you'd probably cut 10% off of electricity consumption and still have a huge demand. Big-ticket items like heating and air-conditioning systems have already plucked the low-hanging efficiency fruit. It simply takes a lot of energy to do what modern humans expect of their appliances. Leakage of appliance not in use happens, true. Yet much of this leakage stuff is simpy unavoidable due to limitations on human awareness, like leaving a phone recharger connected and leaking current that way. People are going to do this.Painting all roofs white/reflective painting in some of the neardesert states could cut costs by about 10-20%. Airconditioning eats energy. There are enough low hanging fruits, but many people are not aware.

Quote
Quote
that's 25,630 square miles of solar panels, or 23% of the land area in Nevada.
....and? The panels don't have to all be in Nevada. We can put them all over the place.

But that is the most efficient place to put solar panel. It's 1.6 times more efficient than New York. The moderate temperatures and predictable weather also minimize wear-and-tear and replacement rates. Decentralized solar generation runs into this trouble, in particular. If every house has a solar panel array, then who cleans the solar panels? For example, cold water sprayed onto a solar panel on a hot summer day can causing cracking. Solar energy is best generated in large farms where appropriate personnel can maintain it. Also note that distributed power production is hell for the distribution system. Not only does it add strain to the system, it also proves a liability for blackouts. The smaller a generator, the faster it has to drops out due to ampere fluctations.(Ie, one generator failing can cause a snowball effect)

Quote
No one said energy renewablity would necessarily be easy, but we need it. We need it very badly. Once a collapse starts it will be difficult to pull out of it, so we need to start and ideally finish going renewable before that has a chance to happen.
We have about 100 years of recoverable shale products under America at current consumption, and China has 300 years. Solar will have to compete on a marketplace with other cheap sources of energy for another half century, perhaps. Slowly it will cut out a larger share of the energy pie, but largely due to market forces and slow development of better technology, which government grants can certainly support over the long-term but not rush immediately to fruition.Those are some optimistic numbers. Beside, shale products are dangerous, contaminating fresh water supplies and being harder to extract. Besides, what are you going to about Artic Meltdown, permafrosts and climate change. Problem with those is that by the time you notice the effects, it's already too late.

Also, someone please tell me what the different sides there are on this debate. I'm kinda arguing without looking at previous statements.
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Trollheiming

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #6734 on: October 16, 2012, 12:57:32 pm »

There's a university in Wyoming? There's anything in Wyoming?
Enrollment: 13,992, in Laramie. They're a I-A school, Mountain West conference.

Plus a dozen or so community colleges and The Frontier School of the Bible. Offering degrees in Bibleology, Bible Engineering, and Advanced Bibliconometrics.

Plenty of farmers and ranchers in Wyoming producing the resources for that hamburger that you like to eat, though. I can't eat an unemployed MA in Gender Studies. Commodities like these are the only non-bubbly investment in a growing world with fixed amounts of arable land, bud. 

Care to compare the unemployment rates of South Dakota and New York side-by-side? People are doing hard work in middle America and actually contributing to the economy in ways that unemployed university grads really can't understand or emotionally come to terms with as they pay off their student debt with McJobs.

Also, South Dakota has the leading school in Mining Tech. You'll make bank if you get so much as a bachelor's there.

Also, someone please tell me what the different sides there are on this debate. I'm kinda arguing without looking at previous statements.

We were talking about the feasibility of a huge DF-like solar farm megaproject that replaced all other electricity sources in America.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:09:59 pm by Trollheiming »
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