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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 764190 times)

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4635 on: August 14, 2012, 05:38:11 pm »

My grandfather sold insurance before WW2, and NO, neither insurance nor decent healthcare was affordable for the poorest Americans. People simply died instead of burdening their family with debt.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4636 on: August 14, 2012, 05:47:18 pm »

My grandfather sold insurance before WW2, and NO, neither insurance nor decent healthcare was affordable for the poorest Americans. People simply died instead of burdening their family with debt.

Not sure what you're talking about there
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Lord Shonus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4637 on: August 14, 2012, 05:56:09 pm »

That was confirmed as being less than factual about ninety years ago. In practice, there were only a few hundred such societies nationwide.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4638 on: August 14, 2012, 06:42:28 pm »

That was confirmed as being less than factual about ninety years ago. In practice, there were only a few hundred such societies nationwide.

Methinks you didn't read the article  ;)
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4639 on: August 14, 2012, 07:25:03 pm »

The article consists of nothing by heresay by a single medical professional.  If we look at actual, y'know, research we see that about half of seniors didn't have any sort of medical insurance until Medicare was passed, at which point the rate rapidly shot up to the high 90s.  Take a look at some CDC research: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr017.pdf
Now that is to say that half of seniors were uninsured in the early 60s, two decades after social security was implemented.  If you are going back to before social security then you don't just have more then half of seniors uninsured, you have half of seniors living in poverty.  There is no way that most people had access to decent healthcare through professional societies.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Drunken

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4640 on: August 14, 2012, 08:18:52 pm »

Sorry to be pedantic bit its 'hearsay'. 'Heresy' is also a word. Heresay is not. Google chrome has a built in spellchecker for forums if you need it.

Edit vvv: That was on purpose right? Lien is actually a word, so there would have been no red line that time. Either way I laughed.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 09:04:12 pm by Drunken »
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4641 on: August 14, 2012, 08:57:16 pm »

Yeah I just didn't notice the red lien under the word.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4643 on: August 15, 2012, 09:24:12 am »

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43472-07-24-2012-CoverageEstimates.pdf

Read it.

Quote
CBO and JCT now estimate that the insurance coverage provisions of the ACA will have a net cost of $1,168 billion over the 2012–2022 period—compared with $1,252 billion projected in March 2012 for that 11-year period—for a net reduction of $84 billion.

Did *you* read it? It keeps getting cheaper everytime the CBO revisits it.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4644 on: August 15, 2012, 11:33:19 am »

Today in Florida political insanity...

Remember senior citizens, robot cars are witchcraft, and they are going to run you down.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/political-ad-florida-scares-seniors-kill-hungry-driverless-170833875.html
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4645 on: August 15, 2012, 11:52:42 am »

One commenter pointed out that we already have robots running our congress.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4646 on: August 15, 2012, 11:56:12 am »

The article consists of nothing by heresay by a single medical professional.  If we look at actual, y'know, research we see that about half of seniors didn't have any sort of medical insurance until Medicare was passed, at which point the rate rapidly shot up to the high 90s.  Take a look at some CDC research: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr017.pdf
Now that is to say that half of seniors were uninsured in the early 60s, two decades after social security was implemented.  If you are going back to before social security then you don't just have more then half of seniors uninsured, you have half of seniors living in poverty.  There is no way that most people had access to decent healthcare through professional societies.

Okay, now where I'd say the previous poster probably didn't read the article, I'd say you definitely didn't read the article.

Okay, now let's get into some more detail here. Yes, half of seniors were uninsured in the early 60s. That is true. What's your point? The COST of healthcare out of pocket was in the realm of $3,000 adjusted for inflation per year, lower than what most countries today pay for healthcare. Unless you're going to argue that the cost of single payer systems cause poverty, I don't think you can seriously argue that in this case. Some people, the very poor, indeed were unable to pay even that; but such people were sufficiently rare that they were generally covered by either charity or the hospital itself engaging in charity work (since because the hospitals weren't forced to do so and were mostly privately run, they had enough excess money to justify it). Because insurance wasn't as widespread as today and didn't feature many of the mandated benefits that it now does, it didn't act as a barrier between the patient and doctor and instead was more of a safety net in the case of catastrophic injury.

But lets go back to 1910, when the article is actually focused. Most people weren't insured then, either, yet the working poor and immigrants had some of the cheapest healthcare around due to mutual aid associations. These associations (also known as lodges and fraternal organizations) were organizations in which working class men would get together and pool their money to pay for things such as medical care. Because they very much needed to keep costs down, the organizations would hire individual physicians with a yearly retainer, and then use them as much as required. If the doctors were substandard they probably wouldn't receive the contract the second year, and since the societies provided great job security they were in high demand. They actually pushed costs down to the point where the yearly cost of healthcare was around $2. If a member had a serious problem and required surgery, they could go to a fraternal hospital, where the cost was around $25 and quality was above average.

However, this mostly declined after the AMA was given monopoly over the licensing of doctors. Many physicians were outraged that their profession was becoming subservient to working class immigrants and blacks (who composed a disproportionate amount of lodges at the time) and wanted the practice stopped. Since the AMA now had monopoly, they first shut down a little over half of all existing medical schools to ensure that they massively increase their own wages, and then they threatened any doctors working in lodges with license removal. This quickly killed lodge healthcare coverage (among other laws restricting coverage of children and so on) in the US. In the UK, lodges were even more common, yet they stopped providing healthcare once the government started; after all, why pay for a lodge doctor when the government is already forcing you to pay in taxes for healthcare?
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4647 on: August 15, 2012, 12:30:48 pm »

1: GreatJustice, YOU obviously didn't read the article. Both of them accurately describe the article, where you fail to do so.

2: Existing in a east coast city meant that those people where not Americas poorest and had access to vastly greater options both in terms of work, charity and social services. America's poorest had no access to such things.

My grandfathers job was selling segregated insurance to blacks in the Mississippi delta for several years, he failed to make a living at it because almost no one could afford it. These were people who had to save money for years to buy clothes so their kids could wear something other than a burlap sack.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4648 on: August 15, 2012, 12:47:35 pm »

Today in Florida political insanity...

Remember senior citizens, robot cars are witchcraft, and they are going to run you down.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/political-ad-florida-scares-seniors-kill-hungry-driverless-170833875.html

Ah, Republican-on-Republican attacks are the best.
"I say my opponent's proposal goes too far!"
"And I say my opponent's proposal doesn't go too far enough!"


As for my $0.02 on the "early insurance" thing. My family never had insurance of ANY kind until at least post-WWII, when the postwar boom gave them the opportunity and the finances to buy some. Even then, it was life insurance, not health insurance. That didn't really kick in until the 1970s or so. Prior to WWII, insurance was kinda pointless for most rural Americans because there was one doctor and you probably paid him in barter rather than cash. A visit out to the farm to look at one of the kids? A dozen eggs. Setting a broken arm or leg? Side of bacon.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4649 on: August 15, 2012, 01:58:00 pm »

1: GreatJustice, YOU obviously didn't read the article. Both of them accurately describe the article, where you fail to do so.

2: Existing in a east coast city meant that those people where not Americas poorest and had access to vastly greater options both in terms of work, charity and social services. America's poorest had no access to such things.

1. Saying "this doesn't count, it's hearsay" is rich considering it comes from the New York Times, and "they didn't have health insurance" isn't even REMOTELY similar to the article, nor is it related.

2. Incorrect again. Organizations such as The Knights and Daughters of Tabor, which operated in Mississippi, were a mutual aid society that made the first black hospital in the area and funded healthcare for its members. If blacks in Mississippi weren't America's poorest, then I don't know who you would qualify for that then. Similar societies existed elsewhere in the US, such as the Ladies Friends of Faith Benevolent Society, so it was hardly restricted to big eastern cities.

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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?
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