Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 285 286 [287] 288 289 ... 714

Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 765252 times)

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4290 on: August 03, 2012, 04:43:51 pm »

The fact that he could've been treated worse justifies treating him badly?
Logged

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4291 on: August 03, 2012, 04:56:03 pm »

The fact that he could've been treated worse justifies treating him badly?

You are aware you give up most of your civilian rights when you do join the military, correct? Not saying it justifies it, but you have no legal basis for arguing against his detention, at all.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Nadaka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nadaka.us
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4292 on: August 03, 2012, 04:57:42 pm »

Even in the military, you have a right to a trial.
Logged
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4293 on: August 03, 2012, 04:59:04 pm »

Even in the military, you have a right to a military trial.

Fixed for correctness.

You seem to be unaware of the large discrepancy between the U.S. legal system for civilians and the hidden, arcane world of tribunals.

They could be cutting his skin off in a dungeon, for all you know. And they have legal precedent to do so, as he's a traitor by any means of military law. They could have simply just shot him in public to make a real example, but they haven't, so stop whining about Bradley Manning. He released classified documents and he's getting a relatively light punishment for doing so.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:01:09 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4294 on: August 03, 2012, 05:00:49 pm »

Yes, generally when you argue against a government it turns out you have no legal basis for doing so because the government made the laws.
Logged

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4295 on: August 03, 2012, 05:02:26 pm »

Yes, generally when you argue against a government it turns out you have no legal basis for doing so because the government made the laws.

Quote
I know this has come up before, but I'm of mixed feelings about the Bradley thing. His heart might have been in the right place, but that was an incredibly dumb thing to do. And you cannot just let a breach of that magnitude go unpunished *or* set a precedent for others to follow.

Sorry that they have a need to defend their code of laws in the military. Go ahead and advocate the dismantling of the military tribunal system and you'll get somewhere, I guess.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4296 on: August 03, 2012, 05:05:19 pm »

I have literally no idea what you're talking about.  If joining the military means you agree that you'll be tortured and kept in solitary confinement constantly for over a year without trial or any opportunity for bail then yes, that needs to be addressed.
Logged

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4297 on: August 03, 2012, 05:08:10 pm »

I have literally no idea what you're talking about.  If joining the military means you agree that you'll be tortured and kept in solitary confinement constantly for over a year without trial or any opportunity for bail then yes, that needs to be addressed.

If you join the military and act as a traitor, you'll be treated as one by the tribunal system, if you don't understand that, you don't understand why he's even arrested in the first place. I'm not calling him a traitor by any means, but he is legally.

It's like you've put on your horse blinds specifically for this issue.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4298 on: August 03, 2012, 05:10:09 pm »

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, no punishment other than arrest and confinement (and confinement no more rigorous than is minimally necessary) is permitted before trial.

Some of the actions taken against Bradley Manning were quite illegal, in light of that.

So no, they aren't permitted to just torture and execute him to make a point, even if he is being charged with treason. Charged, mind you, he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4299 on: August 03, 2012, 05:11:05 pm »

So no, they aren't permitted to just torture and execute him to make a point.

They've proven his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt [to a military trial] I'm sure. Especially since he wasn't really that good at not admitting to it the moment he did it or covering up any sorts of tracks. So yes, they could have easily just shot him in the Middle East and called him a traitor for 'supporting the terrorists.' But they didn't, which is a good thing. So I really don't see why you're all whining while we've got plenty of actually innocent people involved in our jails [and not to mention Gitmo, still stuffed full of actual innocents].
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:14:56 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4300 on: August 03, 2012, 05:14:20 pm »

So no, they aren't permitted to just torture and execute him to make a point.

They've proven his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt [to a military trial] I'm sure.

For the record, no, they haven't, as he hasn't been tried yet.  There have been charges filed, an arraignment, and a couple hearings, but there has been no judgement or sentence.
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Nadaka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nadaka.us
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4301 on: August 03, 2012, 05:14:31 pm »

So no, they aren't permitted to just torture and execute him to make a point.

They've proven his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt [to a military trial] I'm sure.

There has not been a military trial. You may be sure, but you are incorrect.
Logged
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4302 on: August 03, 2012, 05:18:09 pm »

So yes, they could have easily just shot him in the Middle East and called him a traitor for 'supporting the terrorists.' But they didn't, which is a good thing.
"Yes your honour, I know I beat that man to within an inch of his life and set his house on fire.  But I could have killed him and blown up the entire block.  But I didn't, which is a good thing."
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:19:42 pm by Leafsnail »
Logged

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4303 on: August 03, 2012, 05:26:04 pm »

I move we build this guy a statue.
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

palsch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4304 on: August 03, 2012, 05:55:50 pm »

On the treason issue, the actual charge is Aiding the enemy. I think it's a bit of a stretch. I can see the case for it and would understand him being found guilty, but at the same time think that the lesser charges are a more fitting description of his actions. Especially the computer espionage act;
Spoiler: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a) (click to show/hide)
Also note conspiracy theorists; that particular law falls under RICO (and for that extra tinfoil crunch it was added to the RICO list by the Patriot Act).

As to his illegal detention and torture, his treatment was disgusting and he is owed compensation. I expect him to bring a suit against the government for that. I would note though that he will have a hard fight. A goodly portion of his detention was entirely valid given the stated legal circumstances. He is going to be reliant on medical reports to show that the POI status (and later suicide watch) he was put under was invalid, simply because a lot of what he was subjected to was justified under those rules. The legal powers gained over a subject ruled to be suicidal or otherwise a risk to themselves are pretty scary. It does sound like these statuses were abused to me, although I am largely basing that on statements from his legal team.

And just for the record I strongly disagree with the idea that any potential worse treatment justifies poor treatment of detainees and prisoners. I also disagree with the idea that Manning could have been treated worse legally or even punished more summarily. The American military justice system is more robust than that and rapidly moving towards the civilian system (amusingly, partially being dragged by military tribunals having to deal with terrorism cases more suited to civilian courts).
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 285 286 [287] 288 289 ... 714