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[darkrider2]

Yes, let's apologize in what's the biggest one on one no holds barred slug fest that comes around every four years.

[Reelya]

Here's a good one: Romney attacking Obama for not vetoing a bill the Republicans pushed through Congress:

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/237797-romney-attacks-obama-on-defense-cuts

[The Mechanical Man]

"If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." - Obama

And this is why I don't support Obama.

His early comments made some sense- "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges". I can agree with that.

But suddenly because of this, business owners have absolutely no credit in the success of their business? It suddenly has nothing to do with hard work and ambition? So much for the American dream...

[mainiac]

Or you could post the quote in context and see that his meaning has no relationship at all to saying that business owners deserve no credit:

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me, because they want to give something back.  They know they didn’t -look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own.  You didn’t get there on your own.  I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart.  There are a lot of smart people out there.  It must be because I worked harder than everybody else.  Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges.  If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.  There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own.  I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service.  That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

Took all of five seconds to find this information.  Kinda sad if you are basing your vote on a mistaken impression that would take you five seconds of research to correct.

[The Mechanical Man]

But within that, again you see- "The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."


He's advocating that a business' success be shared, when in reality it shouldn't. He believes that the government is responsible for business success besides just the individuals running it, when in reality it isn't.

[mainiac]

He's advocating that a business' success be shared, when in reality it shouldn't. He believes that the government is responsible for business success besides just the individuals running it, when in reality it isn't.

Well gee, that's funny because just one post ago you said:

His early comments made some sense- "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges". I can agree with that.

[The Mechanical Man]

Well gee, that's funny because just one post ago you said:

His early comments made some sense- "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges". I can agree with that.

That's a complete difference, though. If I were a private business owner, yes, the government would be responsible for the highways that I might ship my goods on. But Obama makes it out as if that means the government was responsible for my profits, my hiring of employees, etc. It's quite a big difference in terms of influence.

[Leafsnail]

I have no idea how you gleaned that from a quote in which Obama states a fact (that the internet was created by government research).

[mainiac]

But Obama makes it out as if that means the government was responsible for my profits, my hiring of employees, etc. It's quite a big difference in terms of influence.

Golly gee, sure sounds like you agree with this guy!

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.

Now mind showing me where Obama says that business owners don't deserve credit for the decisions they make, something that clearly you and Obama know isn't true?

[The Mechanical Man]

I have no idea how you gleaned that from a quote in which Obama states a fact (that the internet was created by government research).

The idea that was prevalent in that section of his speech (not just the one sentence I quoted) would support the claim that because the government invented the internet, it is now responsible for the profits made off of the internet. Which I suppose it partly is, yes. But of course the internet has far exceeded anything that the government (or anyone, really) thought it would be. The internet now is quite a different beast than the internet that was first invented. But those changes did not come "from above". Private enterprise has been responsible for what the internet is today, and they are responsible for the profits made on the internet today.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.

Now mind showing me where Obama says that business owners don't deserve credit for the decisions they make, something that clearly you and Obama know isn't true?

Well, I would go back to that quote again- "If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."

Perhaps I've gone off on a tangent with my argument. Perhaps Obama meant something different than what he said. But take a look at what he said. There's a big difference between him saying "you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" and him saying "you didn't build that by yourself. You had help along the way". Those two statements have fundamentally different meanings. I don't care what he said in the rest of his speech, why would he say this? Why not say the latter? Maybe he meant the latter. But it was a terribly poor choice of words for him to choose.

[Frumple]

Reading comprehension. The "that" in that sentence referred to the roads. Not the business. In context, it's fine. It's only when you strip the sentence of context and attempt to cherry-pick the sentence into meaning something else entirely that it's a "terribly poor choice of words." The context is kinda' important. He's specifically saying "you had help along the way" in that speech. It only looks different when you tear out a specific sentence and misconstrue its meaning due to th'whole lacking of context thing.

[The Mechanical Man]

Reading comprehension. The "that" in that sentence referred to the roads. Not the business. In context, it's fine. It's only when you strip the sentence of context and attempt to cherry-pick the sentence into meaning something else entirely that it's a "terribly poor choice of words." The context is kinda' important. He's specifically saying "you had help along the way" in that speech. It only looks different when you tear out a specific sentence and misconstrue its meaning due to th'whole lacking of context thing.

Oh believe me, it has nothing to do with the context. I read the whole section (6+ paragraphs) of his speech and I still thought that he meant something different than what you say he did. And for reading comprehension, well, what else would the "that" refer to but business? You can't have 1 subject (highways), then bring up a 2nd subject (a business), then use "that" and expect people to know it refers to the first subject. Perhaps I am in the minority in interpreting it in the way that I did. I'm not trying to deceive anyone, that's just how I interpreted it by myself. I still think it's a poor choice of words.


But I redact my previous statements. Assuming that he meant what you say he did, his statement makes sense.

[Frumple]

Yeah, an edit replacing "that" with "those roads" would have been more clear. As you noticed, though, if he'd been referring to the businesses instead of the roads with that that, the message would have been quite ridiculous and, as maniac noted, at odds with the rest of what th'fellow said. Chalk it up to the vagrancies of the spoken word, I guess.

Some days I thnk it'd be nice if we got more essays than transcripts, but I've picked up enough info on the rate of low-capability readers and the illiterate in the states (many million... it's actually a fairly hefty voting block, if the volunteer tutor information they're throwing around is accurate) to know that's probably not going to happen

[mainiac]

I think observing any high school english class will show that it is quite easy indeed to ignore the obvious intent of an essay's author.

[Frumple]

I think observing any high school english class will show that it is quite easy indeed to ignore the obvious intent of an essay's author.

Can you imagine a major politician's position with an actual bullet point reference list, and then the response papers similarly equipped? Naturally, the sources would be publicly and easily accessible! Sometimes I think I dream about that. It would be amazing~

Maybe once TV finishes dying off it'll become more of a possibility. A person can dream.