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[Bauglir]

When it came to triangulating to the middle ground however they were spot on.

Are you, by any chance, aware of what the word "moderate" means?

As for Lincoln Chaffee, yes, what a great moderate.  What happened to him?  Oh well he left the party and endorsed Barack Obama for president.  How does this show that moderates still exist in the GOP?

It shows very little, as an isolated example.

[mainiac]

But that's positioning not true ideology.  They position themselves as centrists no matter how far the center will move.  When the individual mandate was a republican idea they supported it as a centrist alternative to Clinton-care.  When it became Obama care suddenly they oppose it.

True moderates do exist in the democratic party.  You don't see them by looking at the party composition of the votes.  You see them in terms of what ideas of the opposition they are willing to adopt and what compromises they will accept.  And these aren't fringe members of the party, Obama, Pelosi and Reed are willing to give quite a lot in the name of compromise as you yourself were complaining just recently.

The republican party couldn't even find people to stand up to Beohner during the debt ceiling crises and say "it's wrong to hold the world economy hostage like this."  That's because true moderates are long since gone.

When it came to triangulating to the middle ground however they were spot on.

Are you, by any chance, aware of what the word "moderate" means?

As for Lincoln Chaffee, yes, what a great moderate.  What happened to him?  Oh well he left the party and endorsed Barack Obama for president.  How does this show that moderates still exist in the GOP?

It shows very little, as an isolated example.

'
If one person want's to kill 2 puppies and the other wants to kill 0 it isn't "moderate" to suggest killing 1.  My point is that they are positioning themselves to a moving ideological center not actual moderates.

You think Lincoln Chaffee is an isolated example?  Well exactly how many moderates republican senators are left?  When the last tree on the island get's cut down you don't call it an isolated example.

[cameron]

My point is that they are positioning themselves to a moving ideological center not actual moderates.

an actual moderate of course will occupy a defined immobile position which has presumably stayed the same for centuries

[Bauglir]

If one person want's to kill 2 puppies and the other wants to kill 0 it isn't "moderate" to suggest killing 1.  My point is that they are positioning themselves to a moving ideological center not actual moderates.

You think Lincoln Chaffee is an isolated example?  Well exactly how many moderates republican senators are left?  When the last tree on the island get's cut down you don't call it an isolated example.

Yes, it is moderate. That's what moderate means. It's a position between two other positions. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or anything of that kind. I'm saying that the moderate position in the context of "Kill all of the puppies" and "Kill none of the puppies" is "Kill some of the puppies."

I don't actually know how many moderate republican senators are left. That's a failing of mine, I admit. It's also totally unrelated to my point about your use of poor rhetoric. Which I apologize for not being clear about.

[mainiac]

My failed rhetoric?  I was just repeating the language that was already being used.  People said that we would see moderates get tired of the republican base and the party would split.  And I think here we see the disagreement.  I say moderates don't exist because I was talking about the mythical moderate republican who will stand up to the base once the base get's extreme enough.  You and RedKing were going by a definition of someone who is ideologically in the middle.

For the sake of what I was saying, that there would be no split in the GOP, I suggest you consider my statement using my definition.

[RedKing]

I kind of feel like that's moving the goalposts, but I'm not gonna argue it. For my part, I don't see GOP moderates standing up to the base, I just think they leave. Either become Democrats, Libertarians, or become detached and disillusioned with politics in general (talking here mostly about the voters, not the pols). My father-in-law is very close to this point, as are a couple of Republican friends of mine. I know several others who have ditched their (R) voter registration and selected Independent instead.

So does it count as a party "split" if instead of two smaller parties, you end up with one smaller party and a bunch of people who just drop out entirely or are absorbed by existing entities?

[PTTG??]

Where can we find a ruthlessly liberal candidate?

I imagine him speaking at the congress and getting inturrupted by a Georgia senator:

Senator: "Your policies are nothing more or less than COMMUNISM!"
Candidate: "Yes?"
Senator: "...Uh... and, and THAT'S BAD!"

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I think the whole "Ruthlessly Progressive" thing is actually very relevant. For example, in US politics, portraying all of your goals as patriotic is something that generally only conservatives do. Yet, when I've done the same to liberal beliefs it seems to add a lot of weight in the minds of others. You just have to be clever about it, since liberal ideas involve change instead of status quo.

For example, portraying allowing same-sex marriage as a result of America's radical dedication to freedom has allowed me to sway people on it in the past. It's like the patriotism is a key thing for some people, and they'll listen to you more if they see your argument as having it.

[RedKing]

Sadly, the "When You Ride Alone, You Ride With Bin Laden" message didn't do much to convince Americans to support fuel-efficiency or carpooling.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Tag "-because this is AMERICA, fuck yeah!" Onto every argument and win the campaign.

[Zrk2]

The two party system truly is the worst thing to ever happen to America.

[Mr. Palau]

Sadly, the "When You Ride Alone, You Ride With Bin Laden" message didn't do much to convince Americans to support fuel-efficiency or carpooling.

Sounds better as "Ride Together, Save Together!" although that is more communitarian than patriotic. Maybe "Save Gas, Save the Nation".

[Zrk2]

Carpool; spend more money on other shit you don't need!

[inteuniso]

The politicians themselves are starting to snap.

Not much longer until glorious revolution, comrades!

[MetalSlimeHunt]

To be fair, if I were an Illinois Republican I'd probably snap too.