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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 772173 times)

RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1860 on: February 13, 2012, 11:48:26 am »

That was an eye-opening moment for me (and also part of why I find this notion that China is so massively oppressive to be amusing)

Ironically, I left China with the impression that it's what libertarianism in action would look like.  All you have to do is look at the sidewalks covered in parked cars and the people squeezing around them.

That is assuming your libertarian world has sidewalks.
True dat. They're not communist, they're hypercapitalist. Complete with the growing problem of massive income disparity because the Maoist "social safety net" is being dismantled like gangbusters. Peasants in the countryside arguably have it better than many of the liurenkou (internal illegal immigrants to the cities) because at least they have subsistence farming. The liurenkou may earn more money, but have way more necessary expenses like housing and food to worry about. And because they're in violation of the hukou system, they're subject to the same sort of abuses and exploitation you'd expect illegal immigrants to face. Shanghai is a glaring example of that. You can have a dude in a gleaming new Lamborghini driving next to some wizened little old grandma on a rickety bicycle carrying about two tons of rubbish on her back, hoping to make a few yuan at the recycling plant so she can afford dinner. And both of them are driving past a dude begging on the sidewalk with no arms, legs or face because of an industrial accident. Who gets ignored by a bevy of twenty-something young women wearing designer Italian clothing which cost more than most Chinese make in a year. It's some seriously messed-up shit. And it's a source of social instability that scares the ever-loving bejeezus out of the Central Committee in Beijing.

It's not really fair to compare something like China that has widescale corruption and abuse from the government with a system designed to minimize the ability of the state to do such things.

Although I imagine people would park haphazardly on the sidewalks and everywhere else in libertarianland due to the complete lack of zoning laws or city ordiances and relative scarcity of public parking.
Except that you can't just say "it's the governnment that's the problem" in China. It's the lack of effective central control of the government that's part of the problem. It's the local magistrate that colludes with a factory owner to deny labor rights to his workers. It's the mayor that takes kickbacks from developers to evict peasants from their land so a new high-rise office building can go up. It's the local PSB chief that takes bribes to overlook sweatshop factories that make Foxconn look like a workers' paradise.

But keep in mind that in these cases, the local government is a facilitator of abuse, not the motivator. The motivators are all the private profit-seeking individuals exploiting the hell out of the system to make a buck. In a pure libertarian system, those people are still there. Only now instead of having to bribe officials, there's simply no officials to deal with (or get in their way).
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Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1861 on: February 13, 2012, 11:54:33 am »

Honestly, I kinda want Libertarianland to exist. I just don't want to live in it.
It would certainly be interesting to watch. Perhaps a Disneylandesque experience? Well, except that the only way to view it would be remotely, or from behind bulletproof glass.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1862 on: February 13, 2012, 12:04:26 pm »

Wouldn't it be fair to say China is the closest to Ron Pauls liberatarianism in the world?
It certainly seems so to me on the economics.
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Montague

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1863 on: February 13, 2012, 12:10:35 pm »

Wouldn't it be fair to say China is the closest to Ron Pauls liberatarianism in the world?
It certainly seems so to me on the economics.
Well, no, but sorta, yeah, the closest thing to libertarianism or minarchy in reality would probably be Hong Kong, which I suppose is nominally part of China. It's more or less independant of the majority of Chinese law, which is not even remotely libertarian, it's just badly governed.

Kowloon Walled City was a good example of a minarchist or even capitalism-anarchy and that was part of Hong Kong.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1864 on: February 13, 2012, 12:43:16 pm »

Wouldn't it be fair to say China is the closest to Ron Pauls liberatarianism in the world?
It certainly seems so to me on the economics.
Well, no, but sorta, yeah, the closest thing to libertarianism or minarchy in reality would probably be Hong Kong, which I suppose is nominally part of China. It's more or less independant of the majority of Chinese law, which is not even remotely libertarian, it's just badly governed.

Kowloon Walled City was a good example of a minarchist or even capitalism-anarchy and that was part of Hong Kong.
Yeah, I remember watching a 20/20 piece several years ago where John Stossel was creaming his shorts over Hong Kong's "freedom", mostly revolving around the fact that you could start a business with virtually no regulation, and that there was no social safety net. I think YMMV in real life.
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Tofu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1865 on: February 13, 2012, 01:12:17 pm »


-snip-

Honestly, I don't place a lot of weight on what religious belief a candiate professes to have. It's them playing politics, it's a selling point for voters who care about such a thing but in reality I imagine half of them don't believe a word of their adopted religion and it has little or no influence on their governing.

I generally look at how zealous they approach their religion is and how much it influences their politics, if they advocate laws against abortion or think creationism or prayer needs to exist in public schools. Then I know they are bat-shit insane and don't need to be in a position of power.
I wouldn't normally either, but when ALL of them are Christian, and most of them are pushing Christian "values" or whatever that is? It just seems kind of unfair to the people that are not Christian. But yeah, it doesn't really have much to say, and the second paragraph of yours was more akin to what I meant.
That was kind of the thing that was crazy to me, how all of these seem to be, well, bat-shit insane.
Thanks for the reply, though.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1866 on: February 13, 2012, 01:40:42 pm »

Don't nearly all the republican candidates support abortion and want more education on creationism etc in schools? I'm sure i've heard them all except newt (including ron paul) arguing actively against Evolution and pro abortion.

To me, they are all bat shit crazy. They argue against the evil state theocracies; A nation which hinders science and medicine by banning stem cell research isn't that far from being lead by a theocrat. Not to mention gay rights, etc etc etc.

Having a veto also makes this a dictatorship, as they can veto reasonable laws because of their own religious prejudices. This looks very similar to countrys like Saudi Arabia in terms of religious leadership. The only difference is an American president vetos laws the people want, wheras in Saudi Arabia the people actually agree with the religious leadership in the most part.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 01:45:04 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1867 on: February 13, 2012, 01:46:52 pm »

A veto isn't a permanent stop to a law. The law in question can go back to Congress, and with enough support (I vaguely recall a number around 75%, but that was from my government class which was six years ago) it can supersede the veto.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1868 on: February 13, 2012, 01:52:35 pm »

A veto isn't a permanent stop to a law. The law in question can go back to Congress, and with enough support (I vaguely recall a number around 75%, but that was from my government class which was six years ago) it can supersede the veto.

Semantics, a veto effectivly destroys a proposed law. In most cases.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1869 on: February 13, 2012, 01:54:01 pm »

No good law can get more than 50% of the senate to agree to it.

If one side like a law, the other side MUST dislike it or else will appear weak.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1870 on: February 13, 2012, 01:57:35 pm »

I must clarify, i'm not against a veto, i'm against one man exercising his religious bigotry with a veto. All the candidates for US president(Republican) would do similar things if given the presidency.

All bush showed when he veto'd stem cell research was that he's too stupid to be president.

The seperation of church and state should prohibit such actions.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:02:36 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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Montague

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1871 on: February 13, 2012, 02:05:32 pm »

Don't nearly all the republican candidates support abortion and want more education on creationism etc in schools? I'm sure i've heard them all except newt (including ron paul) arguing actively against Evolution and pro abortion.

To me, they are all bat shit crazy. They argue against the evil state theocracies; A nation which hinders science and medicine by banning stem cell research isn't that far from being lead by a theocrat. Not to mention gay rights, etc etc etc.

Having a veto also makes this a dictatorship, as they can veto reasonable laws because of their own religious prejudices. This looks very similar to countrys like Saudi Arabia in terms of religious leadership. The only difference is an American president vetos laws the people want, wheras in Saudi Arabia the people actually agree with the religious leadership in the most part.

It does seem massively hypocritical of them when you put it like that. They say they hate theocracies and then profess to advocate very theocratic policies. I guess there is that thing where factions of similar ideologies passionately hate each other more then anything else. Sort of like the different flavors of communists calling each other 'revisionists' and trying to destroy each other. I suppose it's natural a Christian theocracy is going to oppose the heretics and heathens.

I wouldn't normally either, but when ALL of them are Christian, and most of them are pushing Christian "values" or whatever that is? It just seems kind of unfair to the people that are not Christian. But yeah, it doesn't really have much to say, and the second paragraph of yours was more akin to what I meant.
That was kind of the thing that was crazy to me, how all of these seem to be, well, bat-shit insane.
Thanks for the reply, though.

Thing is, during primaries and whatnot republicans are going to get up on the pulpit and claim these sorts of things because they are attempting to appeal to the constitutes and evangelists. Then when they are in actually in power they take a stance like "I personally think abortion is abhorrent but the government must respect a woman's right to choose" or some sort of cop-out like that and people call them flip-floppers. Really, I believe most politicians are intelligent enough to know that they are representative of a secular government and there is opposition and limits and realities inherit in that, but know they have to put on a show for the 'Christian Values' crowd to get elected. Sometimes you have to really listen to what they say, if they are stating their personal or philosophical opinion or actually advocating some sort of change to the law. Basically, the saying goes that you cannot trust everything that comes out of a politician's mouth.

If they really do believe it and really want to strip freedoms in the name of Jesus, well good thing there are checks and balances and plenty of opponents and independents who won't let them advance it easily.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1872 on: February 13, 2012, 02:13:40 pm »

Republican never ban abortion because they know that democratic filibusters and supreme court injunctions stop them.  That didn't stop them from passing hundreds of restrictions on abortion over the past decade and greatly reducing the number of abortion clinics out there.

Todays republicans are a different breed from past politicians.  They are willing to stake out massively unpopular positions.  Mitt Romney's tax plan calls for tax hikes on the median tax payer and tax cuts for the richest.  These two positions at the same time would normally be the sign that a candidate is on the far right fringe but instead he is seen as too moderate.
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1873 on: February 13, 2012, 02:22:19 pm »

Weird, I always thought that the Republicans never try to ban abortion because it can be seen as a "get another term free" card.

1: Promise to ban abortion
2: Get elected
3: Aside from the occasional sound-bite, make no attempt to ban abortion during your term
4: When election time rolls around, blame the evil liberals for not being able to ban abortion
5: Get re-elected

Repeat as needed. Of course, this won't work everywhere, but I'm pretty sure that stunts like this are how people like Bachman stay in office.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1874 on: February 13, 2012, 02:29:37 pm »

For a decade they were nibbling around the edges, but they've started really pushing the abortion restrictions at the state level in the past year.  It's important to remember that the typical republican who recently was elected to office for the first time is far more conservative then you would expect by comparing them to republican incumbents from similar districts or offices.  So even though the recent freshman congressman are on average from more competitive districts, on average they are to the right of the republican incumbents they joined.  The GOP took a really hard turn to the right over the past three years.
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