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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763475 times)

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1725 on: February 10, 2012, 01:03:57 am »

...I'd just like to say that is not what all conservative believe God I have to say this a lot this stuff gets brought up a lot in this thread and there is noone who wants to bring up the liberal stuff. I do have to say though, screw political correctness.


Like there's this one person who advises colors for preschools, telling them to use lavender or green paper instead of white paper because paper is power, and for teachers to, if their favorite color is asked, say black or brown.

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1726 on: February 10, 2012, 01:17:21 am »

...I'd just like to say that is not what all conservative believe God I have to say this a lot this stuff gets brought up a lot in this thread and there is noone who wants to bring up the liberal stuff. I do have to say though, screw political correctness.


Like there's this one person who advises colors for preschools, telling them to use lavender or green paper instead of white paper because paper is power, and for teachers to, if their favorite color is asked, say black or brown.

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!

Um? What? I've never even once heard of anything even remotely like that happening at all.

But there is some crazy on this side of the fence.

But if you want to rage at say... PETA or the anti-nuclear greens or the anti 2nd amendment people, then I will stand right by your side because they bother me too.

Another example: my elder brother got caught up in OWS and was saying that student loans should be forgiven, even though it would just be giving a handout directly to the banks he was protesting.

But for the most part we should be discussing stuff directly related to the 2012 elections.

An an uninformative and uninteresting note, I have been completely unable to find any information on anyone who is going to be running for office in florida.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1727 on: February 10, 2012, 01:20:04 am »

Like there's this one person who advises colors for preschools, telling them to use lavender or green paper instead of white paper because paper is power, and for teachers to, if their favorite color is asked, say black or brown.

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!

So... you complain about people bringing up generalizations that don't apply to you, even though they're generalizations espoused by a large segment of popular conservatism.

... And then you immediately talk about a trend you hate and bring up this one particular, extremely sketchy and dubious example, about literally one person, as if it represents anything at all?

A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1728 on: February 10, 2012, 01:41:32 am »

I like how apparently the whole argument against the possibly-fictitious scenario  is predicated on someone telling people to use a different color paper for potentially 'politically correct' reasons and that's bad because political correctness in of itself is apparently bad.  It's faulty reasoning that is completely reactionary and hinges solely on an appeal to tradition.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 01:43:05 am by Capntastic »
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Montague

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1729 on: February 10, 2012, 02:08:06 am »

I like how apparently the whole argument against the possibly-fictitious scenario  is predicated on someone telling people to use a different color paper for potentially 'politically correct' reasons and that's bad because political correctness in of itself is apparently bad.  It's faulty reasoning that is completely reactionary and hinges solely on an appeal to tradition.

I think the overwhelming emphasis on promoting 'multiculturalism' in the school system is a little silly, if not an overt attempt at brainwashing children. It's one thing to encourage kids to not pick on the exchange student, but the preachiness and volume of the "celebrate diversity" routine and political correctness is excessive and it's forced.

Not that it really matters, because nothing they try to instill in kids in school ever sticks anyways. Just like how that "say no to drugs" and abstience education doesn't make a damn bit of difference. They rebel against it out of principle, because they know that it's something being forced upon them.
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1730 on: February 10, 2012, 02:20:28 am »

*attends multicultural events*
*has never done drugs*
*has never had sex*

I think it depends on the kids in question. You'll have your "rebels", and you'll have your "squares".
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1731 on: February 10, 2012, 02:22:23 am »

I think the overwhelming emphasis on promoting 'multiculturalism' in the school system is a little silly, if not an overt attempt at brainwashing children. It's one thing to encourage kids to not pick on the exchange student, but the preachiness and volume of the "celebrate diversity" routine and political correctness is excessive and it's forced.

As if brainwashing children to be tolerant is as bad as brainwashing children to be intolerant, which is much, much more common...
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1732 on: February 10, 2012, 02:23:03 am »

Even though you're using 'multiculturalism' in scare quotes without really defining what you mean, I'm pretty sure multiculturalism is a perfectly decent thing to teach in a school in a country that is becoming increasingly multicultural.  Do you think there's a 'default' culture we should be sticking to?

As for drugs and abstinence, kids generally know when information being fed to them is bad, like "you need to learn cursive".  Being taught that, well, yes, hispanic people have their own traditions and contributions to our society as a whole, we should know about them because 17% of the US is hispanic isn't really useless information.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1733 on: February 10, 2012, 02:42:59 am »

Even though you're using 'multiculturalism' in scare quotes without really defining what you mean, I'm pretty sure multiculturalism is a perfectly decent thing to teach in a school in a country that is becoming increasingly multicultural.  Do you think there's a 'default' culture we should be sticking to?

As for drugs and abstinence, kids generally know when information being fed to them is bad, like "you need to learn cursive".  Being taught that, well, yes, hispanic people have their own traditions and contributions to our society as a whole, we should know about them because 17% of the US is hispanic isn't really useless information.

Of course and that's all fine, it's just the volume and zeal they use is what irks me. The colored paper thing, for example. I use the scare quotations because I'm not sure it's even really multiculturalism they are aiming for, like they advocate in Europe. America isn't really even multicultural, it's monocultural. It's a 'melting pot', not a 'cultural mosiac'. I'd think the goal is to intergrate other cultures into our own, rather then enforce several distinct cultures in the same country.

To extent the metaphor, a mosiac is pretty from the outside, but it's a fragmented whole, with peices that never actually touch one another. I don't understand the intent behind emphsising the differences between cultures, or trying to drive wedges between ethnic or cultural groups by highlighting what makes them different rather then what makes them similar. I don't see how this can accomplish anything but aggravate tensions between different cultures, or create a backlash, which is why I agree that multiculturalism has failed, because this hasn't happened. Immigrants and whatnot should be encouraged to intergrate into mainstream culture, not told to go fuck off back to the ghetto and stay different because we want to perserve and celebrate their cultural outsider identity.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:46:35 am by Montague »
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1734 on: February 10, 2012, 03:10:13 am »

The colored paper thing, if it's even true, is stupid. Learning about how people from different backgrounds live is a good thing. It leads to that melting pot you mentioned, as people adopt other ideas and traditions. Here in California, for instance, Cinco de Mayo is a fairly major event that people of all races and backgrounds celebrate.

I disagree that the purpose of multiculturalism is driving wedges between different groups. I think the purpose is to share ideas, food, customs, and just about anything else you can think of, so you'll find something you like about other groups. Once you find something you like, it's easier to get along. If it's easier to get along, there is less tension and violence between groups. The whole thing morphs into a new culture greater than the sum of it's parts.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1735 on: February 10, 2012, 03:11:54 am »

What volume and zeal?  On what basis are you saying that America only has/needs one culture?  Who's 'enforcing culture'?  Either show us an article or something about the colored paper thing or stop expecting us to let you use it as the basis for what you're saying.  It's an anecdote of an anecdote, and one-sided at that, currently.

Your melting pot/mosaic metaphor fails because beyond tilting at the windmills you've yet to demonstrate are giants, you're asserting that recognizing that people coming from different places and holding different beliefs negates their ability to coexist with others.  I know you're probably not trying to do so consciously, but you're prescribing a really authoritarian stance- one that specifically engenders privilege of the majority at the expense of the minority.

If you feel that someone having a different culture than you aggravates tensions between you and them, is that anyone's fault but your own?  Do you truly think that ignoring cultural differences rather than preparing people to accept them might help people?  Again, just like with the abstinence education which you've correctly dismissed, it fails because it says "don't do this" and doesn't prepare people to make educated choices.  Why should we hold ignorance up as our shield?

And by saying that people's options are to "integrate into mainstream culture" or "fuck off back to the ghetto" you're creating a really terrible false dilemma.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1736 on: February 10, 2012, 03:13:46 am »

Nn... well, America always has been at its best when it's actively stealing from other cultures. We would probably be better off if we did a bit more of that than trying to export.

M'not even sure where I stand on all that rotterdamn nonsense, I guess; I've never really noticed America having much of a culture to integrate with. Some junk on upward mobility and "freedom and equality," a hefty dose of 'leave me the fuck alone, everyone else,' a few holidays and... shit, what's left? Fair amount of local stuff, but nothing really on the national scale. Plenty of room to haul along old traditions if folks feel like. Guess what I'm saying is that I'd be all for mainstream culture (which is mostly empty) starting to be a little more proactive in stealing the neat bits from the immigrants. Or rather, it's rather silly to say melting pot and expect all the integration to be one way... I guess. Which seems to be the more virulent anti-multiculture position.

I'unno, I haven't been exposed to many people not using the 'say no to multiculturalism' as thinly (if at all) veiled bigotry/racism/xenophobia. The message, "Let us work towards integration" sounds a lot better than "Assimilate or fuck off, not!us." Unsurprisingly, I haven't really ran into much multicultural crusading in my area (The occasional exhibit or whatever doesn't even remotely count), so maybe it's being hammered in harder in other places.

I'm just not really sure what the issue is, I guess. I can't really see anything negative in checking out the practices of other cultures. Maybe some negatives in it being mandatory, but having the option there (and possibly encouraged) to learn more about the history of the world doesn't sound like it'd be something objectionable.

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1737 on: February 10, 2012, 03:33:05 am »

Of course and that's all fine, it's just the volume and zeal they use is what irks me. The colored paper thing, for example.

If your example has to be so apocryphal and extreme that it's probably completely fabricated, what does that say about your ability to back up your point?

Quote
It's a 'melting pot', not a 'cultural mosiac'. I'd think the goal is to intergrate other cultures into our own, rather then enforce several distinct cultures in the same country.

If you want to encourage integration of other cultures within our own, we need to actually make that plausible. There are clear socioeconomic barriers to integration/assimilation. Most importantly, the poor in the US tend to stay poor across generations. If you don't think this is true, look at the trouble african-americans have as a group despite it being 2012, decades after the "civil rights" era, and over 150 years after the abolition of slavery.

Quote
I don't understand the intent behind emphsising the differences between cultures, or trying to drive wedges between ethnic or cultural groups by highlighting what makes them different rather then what makes them similar.

In social groups, diversity is valuable. This is clear in everything from evolutionary biology to the concept of division of labor. In a very general sense, diversity is good, not bad. It's understandable that any society needs some commonality of culture in order to function, but celebrating our differences has value as well. Also, this might surprise you, but people celebrating and learning about each other's differences is a step to cultural assimilation/integration in the first place.

Quote
which is why I agree that multiculturalism has failed, because this hasn't happened.

It hasn't? Funny, because I'm pretty sure blacks, the Irish, and Jews are sure as hell at least treated better now than they were several decades ago. The reason you don't see cultural integration where it exists is because it has occurred.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1738 on: February 10, 2012, 04:29:11 am »

Quote
If your example has to be so apocryphal and extreme that it's probably completely fabricated, what does that say about your ability to back up your point?

Why does everyone hate the colored paper ancedote so much?

Quote
If you want to encourage integration of other cultures within our own, we need to actually make that plausible. There are clear socioeconomic barriers to integration/assimilation. Most importantly, the poor in the US tend to stay poor across generations. If you don't think this is true, look at the trouble african-americans have as a group despite it being 2012, decades after the "civil rights" era, and over 150 years after the abolition of slavery.

I wonder if this isn't cause vs corrolation. There is a culture that likes to remain distinct, there is a reason people in ghettos are poor. 

Quote
In social groups, diversity is valuable. This is clear in everything from evolutionary biology to the concept of division of labor. In a very general sense, diversity is good, not bad. It's understandable that any society needs some commonality of culture in order to function, but celebrating our differences has value as well. Also, this might surprise you, but people celebrating and learning about each other's differences is a step to cultural assimilation/integration in the first place.

I've never heard a decent argument as to why diversity is some desired thing that needs to be actively persued. I accept it as a natural occurance, rather then something that needs to be forced or advocated. Immigrants should come to a country because they want to belong there. Not come there to bring their own ideologies and culture and live seperate from the natives. That's basically what colonialism was all about. Some of the most prosperous nations on earth are overwhelmingly homogenous. Japan, South Korea, the Scandinavian countries, ect. I can think of some more "diverse" nations not nearly so prosperous.

Quote
It hasn't? Funny, because I'm pretty sure blacks, the Irish, and Jews are sure as hell at least treated better now than they were several decades ago. The reason you don't see cultural integration where it exists is because it has occurred.

Thats from intergration and tolerance, not multiculturalism, which is what I mean.

I think cultural influence is great. I also think cultural influence is inevitible and natural and doesn't need to be forced. Japanese cultural is basically mainstream now in America. People like it and adopt it for it's own merit. We did not need to bring 10 million Japanese people into the country for this to happen, nor did the government need to teach kids the virtues of their culture. Why they do this in Europe, is beyond me. I don't believe every culture in the world is compatible with one another, nor do I believe every ideology or philisophy is worth equal consideration. Some ideas are crap.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1739 on: February 10, 2012, 04:35:51 am »

Firstly, on social integration, schools in particular have a strong interest in encouraging integration and tolerance as strongly as they can. There are plenty of studies showing that diverse and integrated student bodies are more successful, academically and in other ways. This is especially true for minority students and goes right up to the college level. It's why colleges actively fight to keep affirmative action programs legal; the programs let them encourage diversity to the advantage of all students.

I'd argue that companies often have an equally strong interest in reflecting the community that they serve and being as open and accepting as is humanly possible to exclude as few customers as they can. Part of this is political correctness, which is simply acknowledging things that do or can offend people and avoiding doing or saying them in front of others. 99% of it is just awareness of what is (or may be considered) a slur or rude. 1% is stupid nonsense utterly unrelated to any real concerns. As far as I can tell, much of that 1% is bullshit made up by British tabloids to mock political correctness.
America isn't really even multicultural, it's monocultural. It's a 'melting pot', not a 'cultural mosiac'. I'd think the goal is to intergrate other cultures into our own, rather then enforce several distinct cultures in the same country.
Except that this is blatantly false. There is no one American culture, even if you discount all racial minorities.

Within America there are more distinct cultural traditions than you can comfortably list. Compare New England to the mid west to the deep south to the Canadian border to California to Texas to Hawaii to DC to Las Vegas to NYC to Boston to San Francisco to to to... The mosaic may not be divided on (solely) racial lines, but it's obvious that one exists. And within that range of cultures it's often hard to point to any common, let alone defining set of features and say that that is American culture.

It's probably why politicians who like to use the idea of an American monoculture have to keep dividing the nation into 'real' America and all those messy, culturally diverse places where people might notice that the monoculture only exists in their heads.

You see the same here in Britain. The very people who like to talk about Britishness are the same who, in another context, will happily play up the cultural difference between cities, counties, the north and south, or at least the different countries on the island. The idea that we can't accept some level of outside culture in that mix is absurd to me. And this is in a far smaller and less racially diverse nation. As far as I can tell, Britishness is the face put on for other nationalities when you want to play on their stereotypical views for your own advantage. You drink the tea and let the accent ring (whatever that accent might be) and instantly acquire essence of *insert current British film star/character here*. Or not.


EDIT: I should just say, multiculturalism tends to mean very different things depending on who is talking. I tend to avoid using the term it simply because that semantics fight is a distraction and lets people avoid the actual topic, but not having that fight means people just talk past each other by saying that what the other person is saying isn't actual multiculturalism.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 04:42:42 am by palsch »
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