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[mainiac]

A large portion of Americans still believe they live in the freest country in the world, too.

Rhetoric like this is not productive.  The fact that our voting system is outdated doesn't mean we aren't free.

If anyone thinks that this treaty thing is more important then more important issues like who appoints the next federal reserve chairman then I guess that this country is getting the leadership it deserves.  I'll be the first to say that Bernanke could have done more but he's still the most active federal reserve chairman in the institutions history and things are looking good that he could get the board to agree to an inflation target (which would be great news).  Romney has promised to replace him with a hard money hardliner and Gingrich has promised to replace him with a idol of Ronald Reagan made out of gold.  If you think that having a federal reserve chairman who is going to slam on the economic brakes is a less important issue then an agreement that carries very little force of law without congressional approval then please then go ahead and sit the election out.

It's a good way to thank Obama for the stimulus, the payroll tax cut, the fact that the Bush tax cuts weren't made permanent, the fact that military spending is going down slightly for the first time in 14 years, the healthcare bill, employment equality laws for women and LBGT people, blocking a number of unsafe mining and drilling operations, raising efficiency standards (and saving the auto industry) and giving us a wonderful little break from all the creeping religious bullshit like intelligent design that any republican president would bring.  But I guess he sucks because he didn't repeal the constitution and pass a bunch of stuff that congress would have never agreed to.

We have a constitution that was deliberately set up in a way to make it easy for the minority to block the majority and where a geographically diverse coalition is needed to reconcile different views within the majority.  When you bitch about Obama not getting shit done you are bitching about the wrong person.

I remember how my parents used to say that Clinton was a useless sellout who never stood for any liberal ideas.  These days they look back on his time in office fondly and are convinced that it's Obama who's the sellout.  I remember how EVERYBODY used to say that there was barely any difference between Bush and Gore.  Turns out it was probably the most important election of our lifetimes.

So before you write off Obama take a real look at him, look at what he has done and what he realistically could have done.  Remember that the harder he pushes for something progressive the more controversial it becomes in our bullshit political system.  And think about the damage to our country that a republican president would do in his place.  If you think the differences are minor then you clearly aren't paying attention.

I'd love a proportional system to allow for a third party.  I'd be voting for the socialists in no time flat.  But we don't have such a system.  What we do have is a primary system.  If you think the democrats are sellouts then the primary system, not the general elections, are where you can best make your voice heard and get people you like elected.  If your candidates can't win a democratic primary that should tell you a lot about their general election viability.  Winning even one primary has a lot more effect then a million protest no-votes.  Work within the system we have not a system that doesn't exist.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

As far as I am concerned Obama betrayed us with NDAA and ACTA.

[mainiac]

As far as I am concerned Obama betrayed us with NDAA and ACTA.

He betrayed us by actually reducing the military budget for the first time in 14 years?  Despite the huge military industrial complex we have with extensive ties to politics?

This is why we can't have nice things.  He comes through and people bitch about him not coming through enough.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It's not about coming through enough. He didn't come through enough with the ACA, and I don't blame him because it passed by a razor's edge.

NDAA and ACTA are both contrary to everything a progressive person should want. That's betrayal. Cutthroat, backstabbing betrayal of having a free nation. And I will never, ever, forget that. Obama turned his back on us. He doesn't deserve to be President.

[jester]

Work within the system we have not a system that doesn't exist.

Hate to sound like a jerk, but id say that system is probably responsible for a large quantity of the problems america faces today

[nenjin]

You can say "work within the system" all you want, that's what we did with Obama Season 1. And while it got us some things I'm happy about:

the payroll tax cut, the fact that the Bush tax cuts weren't made permanent, the fact that military spending is going down slightly for the first time in 14 years, the healthcare bill, employment equality laws for women and LBGT people, blocking a number of unsafe mining and drilling operations

Let's talk about what he's done that's not worthy of praise.

-Backpedaling on campaign promises to end the use of Guantanamo Detention Center
-A failed railway innovation plan cooked up at the last second.
-Two bankrupt green energy industries which got sizable federal grants.
-SOPA
-PIPA
-ACTA
-NDAA (which stands in stark contrast to his campaigning for his first term)
-Bailing out every single industry that asked for it, many of which have already repaid their debts and gone back to business as usual.
-Choosing Geithner in the middle of the banking meltdown to run things
-Not taking an active leadership role during the debt crisis, even when he's perfectly willing to use executive privilege when it fits his agenda.

And that's before I even really start asking Google to remember for me. If that's "working within the system", then to me voting for Obama is staving off some evils while accepting a handful of others. I don't believe he represents U.S. Citizens. I feel like he's a poster boy for "Agency Capture" at the executive level. And I simply can't give my vote for that, particularly not at this point in time where it seems like industry is rushing to exploit the favor of the Executive as fast as possible.

I don't have any delusions that the Republican candidates would do a better job for me either. And I'm not voting for them, either. Obama has met my bare minimums as a social democrat, while he's completely violated my expectations about an independent executive that is actually concerned with protecting civil liberties. Seriously, what American president blindly enters into a global contract that allows extra-legal, international prosecution of American citizens without the protection of our own courts? And does without even a shred of national debate?

That's the kind of behavior I expect out of Republicans. Which begs the question why I'd vote for him again, knowing what I know now about his ultimate politics.

[SalmonGod]

He betrayed us by signing an extension of the patriot act for even longer than the republicans suggested extending it for.  Explicity promoting the most absurd levels of government secrecy since the cold war, while promising unprecedented transparency (he personally denied freedom of information requests for details on ACTA because he claimed it a threat to national security, for instance).  Escalating the incredibly reckless military drone program.  Implicitly supporting the crackdown on journalism, whistleblowers, and dissenting social movements that has led to the U.S. dropping 27 ranks in the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index this year.  And ACTA, which I believe to be a bigger deal than you.

I'm not saying that everything he's done is bad, and I don't blame him for not being able to do more in the face of a great deal of opposition.  I blame him for the things he has done that continue or even escalate the oppressive elements of the old administration, set the stage for greater abuses by further administrations, and criminalizes vocal opposition to these trends.

Also, you say he's blocked unsafe mining and drilling, yet he approved 27 offshore drilling operations in the aftermath of the BP oil spill.

The fact that our voting system is outdated doesn't mean we aren't free.

Our voting system is not just outdated.  Important components of it are private property of the entrenched powers.  And I never said we aren't free.  I was making a bitter remark about how many people will say that the entire rest of the world is worse, no matter how bad things get.  I encounter it frequently, and it rubs me quite wrongly.

[Heron TSG]

I'll say what I've said all along thus far in this election season. I'm voting for Obama, even though it pains me. There is stuff that he has done that is absolutely horrible. (PATRIOT act, ACTA, etc) On the other hand, good social policies.

There are no third party options that can reasonably win this election. The only alternative is going to be one of the remaining Republicans.

Santorum: Almost dead in the water, and FUCK NO.
Ron Paul: In the same boat, but has no grasp of economics, and his social policies are appalling.
Gingrich: Half of his own party hates him, he's a terrible diplomat, and he supported SOPA/PIPA until the 18th.
Romney: Utterly disconnected with the finances of the average American. Remember the $10,000 bet with Perry? Supported SOPA/PIPA until the 18th, claims to be extremely socially conservative like it's a good thing.

Romney and Gingrich have supported the same bad decisions as Obama, but they don't have anything to counterbalance it.

@nenjin: SOPA/PIPA were made by congress, and a veto was threatened. Though I have my doubts, the signing statement on the NDAA says that it will not be used on American citizens. Bush did TARP, Obama did a far smaller one. (People forget that.)

I wish you could only be president once. Maybe we could have gotten a liberal candidate to run for the Democrats, that'd be nice. I'm just incredibly frustrated that my choices are either 'vote for a semi-bastard", 'vote for a complete bastard', or 'vote for nobody, which will give the complete bastards a slightly better chance.'

Bear in mind that I want to change this. My ultimate goal, if I do decide to go into politics, would be to become incredibly influential in one party or the other and tear it into a significant third party. It looks like the Republicans may already be heading that way. It's a longshot, though. At the moment I'm supporting the Occupy candidate against the incumbent for the House of Representatives. It's something.

[mainiac]

Are we talking about the same NDAA here?  I was talking about the National Defense Authorization Act.

[Heron TSG]

Then as far as I know, yes. What's your confusion?

[darkrider2]

The republicans had that whole tea party shenanigan a while back and they seemed to be tearing in two, actually, their whole party is kinda scraping its knee on every rock in the park. But that's just now. I guarantee when the democrats no longer have a re-running president, the repubiclan party will be unified 100%. Four years everyone.

[mainiac]

Then as far as I know, yes. What's your confusion?

Because the NDAA that Obama just signed lowered defense spending slightly compared to the year before and is a huge progressive triumph.  It shows that Obama's talk about getting the right people in face to start trimming the military budget wasn't just talk because we are actually seeing things moving in the right direction.  It's even better when you consider that it shrinking before inflation adjustment and the growing population or the fact that this should mean that we would continue to see the military budget shrink in the future.  This is exactly what we should have hoped for.  He wasn't going to take a fire-axe to the defense budget but now that we have responsible people in charge and they have had time to lay the groundwork we have started seeing progress.  People have been saying we need to reform the defense budget for years.  This is exactly what they have been asking for!

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Mainiac, this year's NDAA contains a provision that allows for the indefinite detainment of US citizens by the military. Did you completely miss this?

[SalmonGod]

While at the same time, our police force is looking more and more like a military....

[Darvi]

I think "empowered thugs" is what you were looking for.